File-level backup from NAS, file shares and file servers
Regnor
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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Regnor »

@Anton: When I first read about the NAS backup feature I was assuming that it also supported tape backup as it's a standard feature ;)
And file to tape is a workaround, but not a good one with it's limitations.

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Gostev »

It *is* a standard functionality in Veeam called File to Tape jobs, which uses the very same data sources as D2D NAS backup jobs. There's no reason to pretend this feature did not exist in Veeam for many years, and is instead just some "workaround" we delivered in v10.

And sure, nothing ever comes without limitations, as features with no limitations take infinite amount of time to be released. However, our File to Tape functionality is has been around for a very long time, so by now we know for the fact that it does the job for the majority of customers who needs a copy of their critical files on tape - and this fact significantly reduces the pressure to deliver a different solution.

All I'm hearing so far is people effectively wanting File to Tape job which scale beyond current ten of millions of files, and have the unified file catalog with our D2D NAS backups. Both of these enhancements are certainly doable down the road, however the same also shows that the current suggestion to use File to Tape job is not somehow totally wrong.

Regnor
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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Regnor »

I hope you didn't misunderstand me; I was refering to the NAS backup itself.
I meant that for every new backup feature you introduce, I would automatically assume that it can go both to disk and tape.

I also don't think that we need the same capabilities on tape.
It should be sufficient if you can use tape for DR or ransomware protection of the NAS backup files/repository.
Perhaps file to tape or virtualizing the repository and creating an image backup could be workarounds until a better solution gets released?

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Gostev »

Unfortunately, almost every other customer I talked to don't just want "NDMP-like" dumps of our NAS backup blobs to tape, but rather expect to be able to do file restores direct from those tape copies. In fact, most are already doing such dumps through our actual NDMP integration anyway to be their "last resort" backup, and what they don't like about those is specifically the lack of file-level restore directly from tape.

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by mdiver »

Just wanted to chime in here as I had a longer discussion with a large customer today. They started to use the new NAS backup functionality heavily already in their sites.
Now they want to go with those backups to tape as they do with all their other VM backups.
File2tape is not an option as it does not scale. AFAIK it was never meant for more then a few thousand files in the first place.
Even trying to dump all the the files in the NAS repository is not feasable as they are also way to many.

For this usecase we wont need any searchability IMO. Just a way to dump the file share repo to tape to be somehow immutable and comply with 3-2-1.

We already tried a dirty workaround by first having an agent job put the structure into a single VBK. But this is cumbersome and prone to error.
We would need some sort of virtual synthetic full for the D2D NAS job without the load on the database many thousands of files have on the file2tape jobs.

The same holds BTW true for plugin backup structures like HANA point-in-time recoveries. Thousands of files.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Dima P. »

Hello Mike,

Thank you for your feedback!
File2tape is not an option as it does not scale. AFAIK it was never meant for more then a few thousand files in the first place.
Small note here: currently we support up to 1 million of objects with Veeam database running on bundled SQL Express (and have no limits with SQL Standard edition).
We would need some sort of virtual synthetic full for the D2D NAS job without the load on the database many thousands of files have on the file2tape jobs.
To make sure I got this right: you would like to tape of a full backup of your nas periodically and the ideal approach would be to synthesize full set of files for the needed day from the data on disk? Cheers!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by mdiver »

Hi Dima.

Thanks for your reply. Do 1M objects really fit into SQL Express? I would have dared maybe up to a few 10.000... In my experience the GUI gets significantly slower and one might risk to render the DB out-of-space.

My strategy is always to have tape only as a safety net. So the day2day recoveries would never run from tape. Thus a full dump of the NAS backup - maybe including all versions - would be helpful. So that one could recover a broken/lost/encrypted/stolen repository from tape.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Dima P. »

Hi Mike,

Sure, we have this limit documented here. For anything above this limit it's strongly recommended to go with SQL Standard edition (and I keep saying that db should be placed on the SSD storage :wink: ).

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[MERGED] NAS backup to Tape as Secondary

Post by William Bohn »

Hello, we just set up NAS backups to disk and they are great. But we also like to backup to tape as secondary and to keep offsite.
So I set up a tape job that went to the repository that the NAS to disk job created. I used that when I set up the Files to Tape job thinking that Veeam would be able to see that format and be able to let me choose files to restore just like the NAS to disk does.

Well, I guess it doesn't. I just see all the vblob files. So is there anyway to backup to tape from Veeam backups like we do for VMs so we are not accessing production location source to tape? We like to backup to tape from Veeam backups of the files like we do the VMs.

Please advise to what is allowed for NAS to Tape.

thank you
-Bill

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Natalia Lupacheva »

Hi Bill,

Moved your post to the existing thread with the feature request.
Please take a look at the discussion above, File to tape is a valid way to go.

Thanks!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by William Bohn »

The BIG reason is that we want to only backup to tape from Veeam backup files and not from production storage to tape. Just like we do with VMs. But if you do that with the NAS backup, it is just a bunch of vblobs that aren't going to help when needing to get a file.

Will using Enterprise Manager help in any way in getting single files from tape easier? How about getting files from VM backups on tape? That also seems like you have to restore the VM from tape just to get one file?

Is Veeam not friendly with Tape? Are people just using swappable SSD drives instead of tape with Veeam?

What are the realistic expectations of using tape with Veeam for VMs and NAS? It seems the old File-to-Tape is straightforward so you can dive in and grab files, but anything that is backed up with regular Veeam jobs does not translate with backup to tape except in a total disaster rebuild scenario.

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Dima P. »

Hello Bill,

Thanks for the feedback!
The BIG reason is that we want to only backup to tape from Veeam backup files and not from production storage to tape. Just like we do with VMs. But if you do that with the NAS backup, it is just a bunch of vblobs that aren't going to help when needing to get a file.
That's true, that's why generally do not recommend using file to tape jobs for nas backup (except rare occasions, say, when you need a monthly tape out without incremental being stored on tape)
Will using Enterprise Manager help in any way in getting single files from tape easier?
Unfortunately not, Enterprise Manager knows nothing about the content of the file to tape jobs.
How about getting files from VM backups on tape? That also seems like you have to restore the VM from tape just to get one file?
If you store VM backup to tape via backup to tape job, EM can show you the file and highlight that it's stored on tape media, but then you need to restore the backup from tape to a staging repository to perform a file level recovery.
What are the realistic expectations of using tape with Veeam for VMs and NAS? It seems the old File-to-Tape is straightforward so you can dive in and grab files, but anything that is backed up with regular Veeam jobs does not translate with backup to tape except in a total disaster rebuild scenario.
For taping out VM backups I'd say backup to tape job is the best option, take a look at this chapter to learn more. For nas backups this is still the improvement request we are working on. Cheers!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by William Bohn »

Ok, thanks for the reply to help understand it.

One question: If we do run a file to tape job that copies the NAS backup files that Veeam creates (vblobs, etc) and put that to tape, can we then copy that from the tape back onto disk and then have Veeam see it like it was a NAS backup? Perhaps someway to import it like that Import from Disk that happens with VMs from tape back to the system? I tried to do that but I didn't see any way to import that back into Veeam. Shouldn't that work since it is the exact same data that the NAS backup creates on disk?

Is this being worked on in a future release?

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Dima P. »

Hello Bill,

Yes, Nas backup files are fully portable and you can import those from one backup server to another without any issues, same works for file to tape jobs. If you plan doing that please make sure that you are copying / taping out entire nas job folder from the repository instead of the specific files. Cheers!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by dasfliege »

+1 here for a proper NAS-to-Tape support.

NAS backup functionality has been pretty disappointing for us so far.
- First of all we had problems selling the feature to our customers, as it is quite costy in some cicumstances. Thanks to the change veeam did to the essentials pricing model, this has changed.
- As far as i know, there is no proper way to have two copys of the same NAS-data in two sites, as there is no copy job functionality for NAS-data. I can only move data older then x days to another storage, but thats not a 1:1 copy and therefore violating 3-2-1 rule.
- There is no proper NAS to tape implementation and therefore vilolating 3-2-1 rule. File to tape is no appropriate workaround due to the following reasons: It's slow as hell. I already backed up the data from the productive storage via nas-backup, so why should i backup it again via file-to-tape? Makes no sense. There is no GFS Pool support for file-to-tape, so i can't apply the same retentions scheme as we have on our VM tape backups.

Imho, NAS-backup is cool but it's at an very early stage of implementation. It should come to a point, where it exactly behaves like VM and Agent backups. Proper copy-job and tape-job support.

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by soncscy » 1 person likes this post

Hi dasfliege,

Just fyi, the Secondary Copy option addresses your second point: https://helpcenter.veeam.com/docs/backu ... ml?ver=100

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by dasfliege »

Thanks, that helps!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by dadan »

+1 for file level recovery for NDMP or NAS Backup. Are there any news, if v12 will implement one of these features? We just implemented tape-backup via Veeam for VMs and files (NDMP), but miss the FLR for files.

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Dima P. »

Hello dadan,

Thank you for your feedback! Integration of NAS backup with tape jobs is indeed planned and devs are already working on it. That's only information I can share at the moment. Cheers!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by dasfliege »

@Dima P
Please make sure that the implmenation is not as basic as file to tape, but also support GFS Media Pools

Does anyone knows any proper workaround to get GFS retention for file-to-tape/NDMP right now? The only way i am aware is creating multiple jobs to multiple pools with different retentions.

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Dima P. »

dasfliege,

Multiple tape jobs is the only workaround at the moment. Thanks for the feedback!

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by firebladez »

I have the same issue - I have a file backup job from my Synology which works 100% but I want to put that data to tape - I've been told by support that the only way is to add the Synology as an NDMP server. Unfortunately, Synology support says that they don't support that process... so are they correct? anyone else had luck with this without adding the share to a VM (adding the agent) and backing that ll up to tape?

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by HannesK »

Hello,
and welcome to the forums.

Depending on the size / amount of files of the Synology, you can also try file-to-tape (see answers above). But keep in mind that you probably need SQL standard edition!

https://helpcenter.veeam.com/docs/backu ... ml?ver=110

Best regards,
Hannes

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by rennerstefan »

Hi Anton, Hannes, hi Veeam Team,
I want to bring this thread back to your attention.

Right now I'm "loosing" around 70% of the Veeam NAS Deals because of the missing Tape Support.
Customers, esp. in the public sector, are willing to completly switch to Veeam but also not willing to invest 3 times in their NAS capacity (primary, backup, secondary copy) but rather use tape as the secondary.
The customers i talk about are all above 400TiB NAS data, most of the far beyond that number.
So the only way for them today is using Veeam for 95% of their workloads and use NetBackup, SprectrumProtect or CommVault for the NAS.
Some of them even choose CommVault for everything just because of that.

The public sector in germany is not allowed to use public clouds as S3 targets and as mentioned its too expensive to keep the data 3 times on-premise.
Also the still have huge Libraries in place.

So any tape support would be highly appreciated by me (and i also think a lot of others).

Thanks
Stefan
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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by HannesK » 1 person likes this post

Hi Stefan,
this topic has our full attention already :-) Scalable NAS-to-Tape has high priority for us, but I cannot comment when it might be available.

For sure, you would not be the only one who would be happy about scalable NAS-to-Tape...

Best regards,
Hannes

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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by rennerstefan »

Just to be clear... for me NAS to Tape is not needed in the first step. For me its more about a "Backup Copy NAS to Tape". The customers are ok to have the backup on additional Disk like it is with VMs but then want to go to tape.
Direct NAS to Tape is something i will anyway not sell to a customers as it will be too slow for recoveries.

Thanks Hannes
Stefan Renner
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Gostev
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Re: Feature request - NAS Backup tape support

Post by Gostev » 1 person likes this post

rennerstefan wrote: Mar 11, 2021 1:40 pmfor me NAS to Tape is not needed in the first step. For me its more about a "Backup Copy NAS to Tape"
It's the same thing for us Stefan, as all the customers want the D2D2T process to put files on tape in the native format, for them to be restorable directly from tape - as opposed to having to stage the entire 1PB of blobs on disk (which will take 1 week, if you even have this much free disk space) before you can actually start restoring.

But it also makes sense in general to have tape backups storing data in the native format... because who knows what Veeam will be 25 years from now, when you need to perform a restore.

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