Discussions specific to tape backups
tsightler
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by tsightler » Nov 14, 2013 9:43 pm

Hevros wrote:However if we can use Veeam to do a file copy to tape for the last physical file server or the last physical SQL server via maintinance plan backups copied to tape by veeam, then we can offer the customer one solution and they will then buy Veeam.
Using SQL maintenance plans to write a dump actually works quite well today even with the existing file level backup. It's generally only when you start backing up many small files that the performance is an issue. And even without that, you can always write the dump to a share on a virtual machine and back that up to Veeam or, as Anton has pointed out, use Cloud Edition to copy files incrementally from a physical machine to a virtual machine and then backup the virtual machine. If you configure a Windows 2012 VM with a dedupe volume, and use the Cloud Edition "Custom" options to sync the files, you actually get good compression/savings as well. You can then backup the system with Veeam and do FLR from the Veeam console for files from the physical server. Not perfect, but it can be quite useful for backing up those 1 or 2 physical machines/NAS server that every client seems to have.

downloadkid
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by downloadkid » Nov 19, 2013 1:22 pm

Same here , I thought it was the tape drive especially as Veeam was reporting all sorts of errors from not finding files to not being able to eject the tape when the job had supposedly finished. Over a 10Gbe backbone I'm getting a few kbps - scary slow. Not at all enterprise quality.

I had just dumped Symantec as they are not able to support Server 2012 or vR2 as a media server - thinking that the reported tape support from Veeam would fill the gap. Looks like I'll have to go to yet another solution......damm shame for a moment there Veeam was looking good.

cffit
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by cffit » Dec 09, 2013 9:54 pm

Before I go on here, I just want everyone to know that I think VEEAM is the best product I have used in my 15 years of being an IT systems admin. I brag to all my IT peers about how great it is and how happy my organization is with it.

Now, this tape issue... I have to jump on the complainer bandwagon here. In all the webcasts, advertisements, feature listings, etc, VEEAM touted how "file to tape" backup was included. I was very excited to get rid of Backup Exec given this function. Now after release, a lot of people are disappointed that some file to backup scenarios VEEAM is very poor and not even feasible as a file to tape solution. I get that it's noted in some places subtly, but never did I hear anything mentioned in the pre-release webcasts or in the feature list that file to tape "was mostly only for backing up VEEAM files and not meant to backup high numbers of small files". To bring that up now because it says so in the user interface somewhere I think is a bad thing to say. If VEEAM knew about this issue early on, they should have made it clear, known and communicated properly.

Again, I get that this backup to tape was geared towards backing up VEEAM's own data files, but I also feel VEEAM was developing backup to tape to convince those who were still sticking with BE to come to the VEEAM side. So many like myself did, and now this chain is reading a little defensive on the VEEAM side as though we all should have known that the backup to tape was mostly geared towards backing up VEEAM files and not other non-VEEAM files. I have been waiting for backup to tape from VEEAM for 2.5 years and I've been on every webcast and read every piece of documentation I could find on backup to tape as it was nearing release. I never recall hearing anything about pointing out performance issues with high numbers of small files.

I assume the issue is pretty deep since it was not included in the R2 patch. As a loyal customer and promoter of VEEAM, I feel a little mislead with this file to tape discussion. I might be able to limp by with my scenario until a fix comes out, but I truly feel for those who posted earlier in this topic. If VEEAM backup to tape is mainly for VEEAM files to tape and the "all other files to tape" backup is "use at your own risk", that should have been more clear.

Rant over. I do appreciate all the attention that is given in these forums and don't mean to be so critical, but this is my opinion on this topic and I'm pretty frustrated.

Gostev
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by Gostev » Dec 10, 2013 11:43 am

cffit wrote:I get that it's noted in some places subtly, but never did I hear anything mentioned in the pre-release webcasts or in the feature list that file to tape "was mostly only for backing up VEEAM files and not meant to backup high numbers of small files". To bring that up now because it says so in the user interface somewhere I think is a bad thing to say. If VEEAM knew about this issue early on, they should have made it clear, known and communicated properly.
I am sorry for this. Unfortunately, I cannot control what field says about the new product functionality before it is released. I guess they simply get over excited about the new stuff...

I don't consider the above as a rant, but rather a valid feedback showing the importance of this specific feature. As I've explained earlier in this thread, we have never designed our tape support with this use case in mind, because we did not realize it will be in such a high demand. Our customers wanted to write Veeam backup files to tape, that is exactly the feature we have delivered. Nobody ever came to us saying they want to be using Veeam to archive millions of files to tape. Now that you guys did come and ask, we will work on addressing this use case as well.

We like to iterate and deliver support for different use cases in response to specific feedback. This allows us to prioritize, deliver exactly what is needed, and eventually bring functionality to the market sooner. If we try to cover all imaginable usage scenarios in the very first feature release, we will simply never release the feature ;) just look at all those "other" vendors and their insane release cycles.

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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by andrewpetre » Dec 11, 2013 12:22 am 1 person likes this post

Not adding much to the conversation, but I can say for our setup that a TL2000 connected to SAS adapter on a bare metal server is writing reasonably fast - between 50 and 60MB per second on each drive with two jobs running simultaneously. The repository it's copying from is local storage, which might be a perk. I have other issues, but speed has not been one.

I did have to use the non-exclusive driver, as earlier described, to get the device(s) to appear to Veeam correctly.

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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by Gagagu » Dec 11, 2013 7:50 pm

Hi,
i'm not glad to hear that. I've testing Veeam Backup & Recovery at the Moment. I want to backup the vm's to a separate nas store and backup some other nas (files, not the vm's) to tape. We have used BE2010 for files and vmware data recovery for vm's before. Now i wanted to change all to veeam. I've tested it and i also get painful slow files to tape backup speed. I will test a little bit around and find hopefully a solution otherwise i cannot buy veeam :cry:

I know that it is the first release that veeam supports tapes and you've made a really good Software but it wont helps me in my case.

greets

cffit
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by cffit » Dec 23, 2013 6:49 pm

Is there any chance of the issue with slow backup of high numbers of small files will be addressed in any patch or hotfix in the near future?

Gostev
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by Gostev » Dec 25, 2013 12:07 pm 1 person likes this post

Gagagu wrote:I will test a little bit around and find hopefully a solution otherwise i cannot buy veeam
Note that you don't have to buy Veeam for backing up files to tape, as this functionality is free (available in Free Edition). Sure, it does not work very fast in the current version, but we are not charging for it either ;)

If you are talking about backing up Veeam backups to tape (large files), then this actually works faster with Veeam than with BE. Archiving large backup files was the main use case for this release, so our tape engine is highly optimized for this type of workload.
cffit wrote:Is there any chance of the issue with slow backup of high numbers of small files will be addressed in any patch or hotfix in the near future?
There is good chance that we will address this in the next release (but not in patch or hotfix, as the changes required are too big). We have already built a prototype that increases the speed of backing up large amount of small files by at least an order of magnitude.

johndoe10110
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by johndoe10110 » Dec 28, 2013 6:29 pm

Great to see the continued enhancements on Files to Tape. Thanks for the update Gostev.

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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by FXE » Feb 16, 2014 9:21 am

Hello,

Veeam 7 R2 was released, and nothing again about this issue...
I think I will have to buy a real tape backup software because Veeam is as slow as its "files to tape" backup to resolve main issues about tape backups...

Vitaliy S.
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by Vitaliy S. » Feb 16, 2014 11:22 am

Hello Fxe,

Yes, you're correct. Veeam B&R v7 R2 was released prior the last reply from Anton, that's why you didn't see any changes. Thanks for the feedback anyway!

FXE
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by FXE » Feb 16, 2014 11:31 am

Is there a roadmap of future fixes ?

Vitaliy S.
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by Vitaliy S. » Feb 16, 2014 12:49 pm

We do not provide public roadmaps, but we are planning to address this in the next major updates.

FXE
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by FXE » Feb 17, 2014 9:10 am

Hello,

I received a email from Gostev about KB1854 addressing some of tape issues, in particular the 260 characters limit.
Thank you for this mail because this limit was another issue which drove me nervous !

In the previous post, you said "we are planning to address this in the next major updates". Will it be in the next update, or in the future ?

Vitaliy S.
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Re: Files to tape is painfully slow

Post by Vitaliy S. » Feb 17, 2014 10:48 am

Do not want to potentially set false expectations, but as Anton said there is good chance that we will address this in the next release.

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