Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

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[MERGED] Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby coreya123 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:58 pm

hello,
I am in the process of migrating our backup process from tapes to disk and implement Veeam at the same time. A full backup for us is 15tb and takes forever using our current system/software. I am looking for recommendations for a new disk based backup target. Veeam suspects we will need 100tb of storage for 5 years worth of data...this seems a like a lot to me.

Will 25+ NLSAS drives offer good performance or should I be looking at 10 SAS drives?

SAN, NAS, or Internal Storage?

Currently I am looking at Dell but have thought about Datto and Synology. Any other brands to look at?

I am looking to acquire 2 appliances so that I can have off-site storage.

Lastly, as a possible option...at our remote site I plan on using this appliance to also be the disk target for our DR recovery. So backup to disk at SiteA, replicate to SiteB, and if DR is needed, recover to the SiteB Appliance virtually.

Any suggestions/comments to help us would greatly be appreciated.
Thank you
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby v.Eremin » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:34 pm

Before we start discussing particular manufactures and models, may I ask you one questions? Have you considered deploying physical Windows Server 2016 server with bunch of locally attached disks? I'm asking because this should give you the best combination of price (locally attached drives), performance (Windows Server 2016 fast clone) and space reduction (spaceless full backup).

Thanks.
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby coreya123 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:26 pm

I have not looked at Windows 2016 but I did look at using a physical server with internal disks. After speaking with several vendors I was nudged toward an inexpensive SAN...though it is not so inexpensive.

One concern I have with any solution is how well will 25+ NL-SAS 7200 rpm drives perform for a backup or restore? I have 15 TB of data to backup and currently it takes forever.

I did have a vendor a year ago offer Windows 2012 with Storage spaces and a SSD drive to do performance caching. What they said sounded great but I am uncertain how well this works with Veeam as Veeam doesn't support caching in its program.

For this project I am looking for everything required to backup my virtual servers, replicate to a remote site, and then recover at the remote site. I need everything for backup and recovery at both sites.

Thank you for your input and I will review the physical server w/internal storage again and see what that comes out to be.
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby Mike Resseler » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:22 am

Corey,

I personally would follow Vladimir's advice and before you make a decision, do a few tests. S2D (the follow-up from storage spaces) has caching and works perfectly with Veeam. We did some testing (OK, I admit... we did some playing :-)) with Luca and some other friends and got some nice results: See here for example: http://www.virtualtothecore.com/en/an-e ... dows-2016/

There are tons of possibilities today and it is difficult to say what the best solution is for backup storage, but what I do say is that it doesn't have to be the most expensive anymore all the time.

Mike
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby nmdange » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:01 pm

I am definitely a fan of that particular server you used, which based on the picture I can tell is actually this SuperMicro server: https://www.supermicro.com/products/sys ... 1CR36L.cfm

Even without ReFS I get really good performance with RAID 50 and a hardware RAID controller, with a lot more than 15 tb of backups (though I have both a 36-bay server and a 45-bay jbod for a total of 81 drives). Here's another good vendor that resells Supermicro hardware: https://www.aberdeeninc.com/stirling-x47/

I will definitely be reporting back soon on how my setup works once I switch to ReFS :)
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby coreya123 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:36 pm

Thank you all for your feedback.
I am looking into the server configurations that you mentioned. My only issue is that I have not been given a lot of time to look into this.

Do you know what kind of performance simple NL-SAS 7200 rpm disks may offer when run in a Raid 5 or 6 and a hardware raid controller? Is anyone backing up a large amount of data to disks of this type? I am trying to estimate how fast I can backup 15 tb on say 30 disks. I know this will vary a lot depending on the type of data and such.

Thank you
Corey
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby coreya123 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:46 pm

The other concern I have is the amount of disk space needed. I am looking to backup 15tb of data and I am wondering how much disk space I will need to keep my backups on for 5+ years. I tried using a tool that Veeam sent me but each time I run it I find I need 50-100tb of space just for the first few months...so I must be doing something wrong.
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Veeam Logoby nmdange » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:02 pm 1 person likes this post

I backup roughly 80tb of VMs with this hardware. With RAID 50, I have yet to be able to back up data fast enough to where my backup repository server is the bottleneck. Looking through my recent jobs, the fastest processing rate I've gotten is around 700MB/sec. Keep in mind after your initial backup of 15tb, all subsequent backups will only be changed data not full copies. So your backup storage doesn't really need to be super fast since only a small amount of changed data would be backed up each day.

In terms of space needed for 5+ years of backups, that really depends on the amount of changed data you have. The important part is using Windows Server 2016 with ReFS to reduce the disk space used, see these references:
veeam-backup-replication-f2/vbr-9-5-refs-t38521.html
veeam-backup-replication-f2/question-re-refs-3-speed-benefits-and-raid6-t38331.html
https://www.veeam.com/blog/advanced-ref ... suite.html
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Veeam Logoby Delo123 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:33 pm

Hi Corey,

we also use DAS (Supermicro 36bay Servers) and JBOD NL-SAS (60bay HGST) disks and even SATA with windows Dedupe enabled. Full Backups regularly go over 1GB/s so i wouldn't be worried about backup performance. windows Dedupe can also run quite fast if you split up your disks in mutiple vdisks (using storage spaces to create a pool and thin disks). Restoring is another things and tends to run a lot slower (but is still way over 300MB/s even from dedupes). In our case we switches all repos from Raid 5 to Raid 10 some time ago because it doesn't really make sense to use parity raids on these big volumes, the risk is just too high... But as said it's much better to get 25 NL-SAS than 10 SAS, you will never reach the same level with "just" 10 hdd's.
Regarding disk space needed windows dedupe can help you here a lot: (here are some examples from one of our repos, fulls and incrementals)
PS C:\Windows\system32> get-dedupstatus

FreeSpace SavedSpace OptimizedFiles InPolicyFiles Volume
--------- ---------- -------------- ------------- ------
37.37 TB 116.91 TB 8982 8988 R:
51.51 TB 56.59 TB 4970 4970 V:
52.17 TB 85.46 TB 499 501 Q:
43.14 TB 102.02 TB 443 443 O:
46.27 TB 38.68 TB 13 13 S:
40.62 TB 61.01 TB 5706 5706 P:
28.11 TB 93.91 TB 272 276 T:

but maybe even better with Veeam ReFS you can create "thin" fulls which don't use much space after the initial full which is a big game changer!
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Veeam Logoby pdkilian » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:17 pm

Mike or Vladimir,

Does all of the reFS goodness that Veeam 9.5 uses only work with Storage Spaces Direct or will the standard Windows 2016 license be able to be used as a backup repository with all of benefits that you described?

Thanks.
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby pdkilian » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:35 pm

v.Eremin wrote:Before we start discussing particular manufactures and models, may I ask you one questions? Have you considered deploying physical Windows Server 2016 server with bunch of locally attached disks? I'm asking because this should give you the best combination of price (locally attached drives), performance (Windows Server 2016 fast clone) and space reduction (spaceless full backup).

Thanks.


Vladimir,

Do these benefits only apply to reFS using Storage Spaces Direct which requires a Data Center license, or will they work with the Standard license of Windows 2016?
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Veeam Logoby Delo123 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:24 am

Storage spaces is included in standard. Storage spaces direct isn't needed!
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Re: Disk Backup Recomendations

Veeam Logoby nmdange » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:00 pm 1 person likes this post

pdkilian wrote:Do these benefits only apply to reFS using Storage Spaces Direct which requires a Data Center license, or will they work with the Standard license of Windows 2016?

Storage Spaces is not required (neither Storage Spaces Direct nor "classic" Storage Spaces"). Any drive formatted with ReFS on Windows Server 2016 will see the same benefits.
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Veeam Logoby pdkilian » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:35 pm

Thank you for your quick replies.
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Veeam Logoby ITP-Stan » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:05 am

Classic Windows Deduplication is only available on NTFS.
On ReFS you don't have dedup but there is block clone what also gives considerable space benefits.
Didn't some do a head-to-head comparison of the 2 yet?
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