Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for Data Domain

Veeam Logoby jsprinkleisg » Fri May 29, 2015 3:07 pm

Gostev wrote:Lately our architects started recommending Local (16+ TB backup files) storage optimization for deduplicating storage. This significantly improves restore performance without impacting backup performance too much.

Doesn't the larger block size result in reduced restore performance for operations such as FLR and Instant VM recovery, as seems to be the case in this post?

BeThePacket wrote:The "change advanced settings to recommended for repository type" prompt is also extremely annoying when creating or modifying a job, since IMO it's suggestion is completely wrong.

Though the prompt may not be completely wrong, I agree it is annoying, especially if the same advanced settings are not optimal in all situations.

Veeam's documentation on this subject is confusing. KB1956 links to KB1745, which is not consistent with the user guide and the UI prompt, while the white paper makes no mention of the advanced job settings at all. I would certainly like to see more consistency among Veeam's documentation.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:33 pm

jsprinkleisg wrote:
Gostev wrote:Lately our architects started recommending Local (16+ TB backup files) storage optimization for deduplicating storage. This significantly improves restore performance without impacting backup performance too much.

Doesn't the larger block size result in reduced restore performance for operations such as FLR and Instant VM recovery, as seems to be the case in this post?

Reading with larger block requires less IOPS, which results in increased restore performance (comparing to using smaller block on the same storage). Though, even given the recommended settings, restore from dedupe storage is still expectedly slower than restore from raw storage with its corresponding recommended setting, just because of deduplication (which is discussed in the referred post).

jsprinkleisg wrote:Veeam's documentation on this subject is confusing. KB1956 links to KB1745, which is not consistent with the user guide and the UI prompt, while the white paper makes no mention of the advanced job settings at all. I would certainly like to see more consistency among Veeam's documentation.

As you can see from this thread, recommendations might change in time, so I believe we need to update the KB. Thanks!
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby SE-1 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:24 am 1 person likes this post

Hello

We also use veeam in combination with a DD2500.

We had the setting also put to Local target (16+ TB backup files).

At a certain point we noticed that our incremental backups where very huge.

This was the total of all our jobs

Processed data GB:11587,1
Transferred data GB: 1859,2
Change ratio: 16,05%

At another veeam environment we where hitting 22% change ratio a day...

As we could not understand where this was coming from, we opened a case
It took support about a month to figure out that it was caused by the local target 16TB setting
after we have changed the setting to lan target and our incrementals dropped to 5-6%

Processed data GB: 12015,4
Transferred data GB: 656,4
Change ratio: 5.46%

At another veeam environment we changed the same and incremental dropped to 3-4%.

The problem with the huge incrementals was that our backup copy jobs had also to process almost 2TB of incrementals instead of 656GB...

Also we have disabled compression in the backup job, as the DD does the compression. Compression on Compression can't be good....
We have also disabled the setting decompress backup data blocks before storing on the repository. It has no point to enable this as there is no compression in the job...
Inline de-duplication is also disabled as the DD does the deduplication

There is a lot of discussion about DD in combination with veeam and there are a lot of recommendations.
But every tweak you do, seems to have negative impact on something else :(
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:54 pm 1 person likes this post

Indeed, it's really just a normal "pick any two" situation (out of 3 critical characteristics). Most things in the world work like that... not that you did not go through this when choosing your backup storage for example, which was the "pick any two" situation between Cost, Capacity and Performance (and you chose the first two). Now, you are effectively trying to get Performance back with Cost staying the same - which means you need to sacrifice Capacity! So, it all makes perfect sense ;)

That said, we are constantly making changes and improvements to get as close as possible to the ideal balance of all 3 characteristics. For example, we will reduce the block size of 16+ TB setting in v9 based on lots of real-world data we have collected from the customer environments. And, there is one other optimization in the pipeline that I am really hoping will make it into v9, which can be a game changer with dedupe appliances.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby btanguay » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:10 pm

Hi,

I'm having the same issue like everybody here. But after discussion with EMC i heard that the v9 should have some improvment in restore performance for FLR and Instant recovery by using multistream instead of singlestream with dd boost. Anybody have more info on that? I've already check the v9 post on the Veeam website, but not much information for now.
Thanks
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:15 pm

Benoit, please stay tuned for future announcements.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby jpveen » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:41 am

Hi all,
Backing up using Veeam8 with DDBoost and CIFS to DD produces very large files at the DD when backing up very large VM's (12TB full backup / 1,5TB incremental on a single VM).

DataDomain Mtree replication suffers from those large files as the mtree-replication works per file and cannot use multiple replication threads for a single file (proven and verified by EMC support on DDOS5.5).
In the environment with this large VM's this leads to a too large replication lag...

Question is how to reduce those filesizes, i.e. how to get Veeam to split the backups in smaller files. For example tell Veeam to create files with a max size of 100GB. Does anybody know how to achieve this. Will changing the "storage optimization" from Local target to LAN or WAN target help achieving this? Or is there somewhere a (hidden) setting to set a max backup filesize in Veeam?

Thanks for your thoughts on this!
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:13 pm

There's no such a setting, however, to reduce the size of increment files you can switch the job to use smaller data blocks, which will, however, involve some processing overhead.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby jpveen » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:03 pm

Ok, that was also my idea, however I can't find anywhere which storage optimization target setting (blocksize) results in which filesize.
The only thing I can find is the standard blocksize list Local16: 8MB, Local: 1MB, LAN: 512KB, WAN: 256KB....
But what will be the corresponding (max/split) filesizes?
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:44 pm

There's no such an estimate, everything depends on the pattern of changes within a VM - with smaller block size you would not need to copy, say, entire 1MB block if only 1KB has changed in it, but 256KB only (if you switch to WAN target, for example).
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby tdewin » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:51 pm

jpveen wrote:Ok, that was also my idea, however I can't find anywhere which storage optimization target setting (blocksize) results in which filesize.
The only thing I can find is the standard blocksize list Local16: 8MB, Local: 1MB, LAN: 512KB, WAN: 256KB....
But what will be the corresponding (max/split) filesizes?

Every job creates it own fileset. There is no splitting of files over a certain threshold. In short if you want more and smaller files, in this version, you can do so by splitting your source data up in more jobs. Changing the block size, could potentially help you in storing less data but doesn't make "more files".
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby jpveen » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:33 am

Ok, but a smaller job than 1 VM is not possible ;-(
So a 1 VM with 5TB VMDK will create a 5TB file.... :-((
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:28 am

You could split the backup by backing up each VM disk (if there are several ones) in a different job, however this is not typically recommended as implies restoration issues.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby tunturk » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:30 am

Dear All

I read all posts but a i cant decide our compression ratio in our test platform. Can you inform which is the correct configuration for compression ratio ? "Dedup Friendly" or "None " or " Optimal" for our Data Domain DDBoost target. :D

Many Thanks
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby v.Eremin » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:56 am

You should be ok with using Optimal level. Thanks.
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