Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby StevenMeier » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:31 pm

IS this the primary Target for your backups ?
As keep reading that DD devices should not be primary targets.

Was there much difference in fibre to network data transfer speeds ?

what switch gear are you using.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby DeadEyedJacks » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:08 am

Yes, DataDomains are sole backup target. Mounting of Backup sets with vNFS is working fine and responsive. This is Veeam B&R version 9 with DDBoost plug-in integration.
(My reading is that issues others encounter with DataDomains seem to relate to entry-level units, CIFS usage, small block sizes and earlier versions.)

Initially Physical proxies, Direct SAN, 8GbFC was tested as VMware Snaps would be held for less time, but due to time to mount the SAN Snaps and lower data extraction rates over FC overall times were longer.
Virtual proxies, 10GbE and Network transport mode was better able to provide a continuous stream of data to the DataDomains, in our environment.
Synthetic fulls are generated on the DataDomains and incrementals forever taken from vSphere hosts.

Switching is Cisco Nexus for 10GbE, 10GbFCoE and HP Brocade for 8GbFC.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby StevenMeier » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:52 pm

Thanks for the helpful reply "DeadEye" much appreciated.

I have spoken to EMC/datadomain about this and said if we go down this path I will be asking for a box for at least a month to Test and evaluate.....will have to wait on their reply.

As we need two boxes I am sure this wont be an issue.

A lot of the reading on this appeared to me as bad setup and or understanding of both products , but there was still an element of "not sure"

In veeam 9 are you use the the "per vm chain option " to recover quicker from de dupe store/device ?

and how are your recoveries etc...time and speed wise.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby DeadEyedJacks » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:24 pm

Hi,
Yes, we use per VM chains, I'd suggest always using this regardless of the repository type for reasons of manageability.
(The only case in which you can't use it is with a rotating removable hard disk setup.)

Very difficult to give useful metrics on throughput for both backup and recovery.
It depends very much on your environment and what you are measuring and where.

i.e. for our setup
Veeam Enterprise Manager reports throughput of 1TB/s for backups at one site.
Whilst the DataDomains report throughput of between 400MB/s and 600 MB/s using DDBoost

But that's because using CBT and DDBoost you are only moving unique still required changed blocks.
Similarly for restores, CBT will only rollback changed blocks for recovery of a VMDK or VM so can be pretty quick.
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[MERGED] Data Domain Performance in v9

Veeam Logoby mdornfeld » Thu May 05, 2016 3:23 pm

We're a mid-sized shop that has about 100 TB of Veeam backups. We currently have a D2D2T strategy, or production -> Veeam Disk storage -> LTO6 Tape. Tape is here whether I like it or not and I'll be stuck with it for the foreseeable future, so I'd prefer not to debate its merits.

We've traditionally used standard enterprise storage from IBM and have had little choice but to mix backups with functional VMware test machines. This is obviously not ideal from a controller perspective or segregation of backups either. That being said, I've been happy with the storage vendor and the near 0 amount of time I spend managing the storage units they sell us.

However, we're finally at the stage in our maturity where we can buy storage for the sole purpose of Veeam backup storage as an intermediary between production data and long term tape retention.

I've been looking into data domain for this function. I've read the papers, looked at the forums, and asked the vendor directly. For the research, it appears to have had it's share of issues with Veeam, from slow CIFS backup times (without converting to NFS), to rehydration problems for file level restores, etc.

Is there anybody in my same scenario who's used something other than data domain in the past that can speak to it's relative backup performance to other enterprise class storage, what issues still remain in the current product, and if rehydration to tape is going to be a killer?

Thank you for any help you can offer.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby rreed » Thu May 05, 2016 6:50 pm 2 people like this post

We use both EMC DD's and Dell DR's. While our DD's are older (620's and 2200's) and 1G connected and our DR's newer (DR4100) and 10G connected, overall functionality is the same. As per the marketing hype, they ingest and dedupe extremely well, but at that are in effect a one-way street for storage. Data goes in quickly but does not come back out quickly - especially if you run more than one restore at a time. Try that next time you get the chance and see how much slower it runs. Also please be aware of the marketing skew of best case scenario numbers; do you run full backups of data that changes almost none at all every day? Then you might see their lofty claims. Weekend fulls w/ weekday incrementals w/ 1+TB of churn every day? You'll see the same realistic numbers as the rest of us and might end up further disappointed.

Despite marketing hype for deduplicating devices, tape is simply not yet dead. It still does its job extremely well, is safer and longer term than dedupe, and w/ LTO-6 and now 7 out, it's keeping up w/ ingest speeds pretty well. Take your dedupe budget and throw it at a JBOD SAN, then off-load those backups to tape. You'll get the same speed out as in, you'll know what to expect out of it, any restores from it will be fast, it's more mutli-use (need an emergency LUN for something else?), and Veeam has some pretty good dedupe and compression built-in.

Oh, and there's also the issue of Veeam's network to tape speed issue a lot of us are experiencing. If your source files are not stored directly on your tape server (again, JBOD SAN or NAS directly connected), and you're pulling your source files from a dedupe device (that's already re-hydrating slowly) across the network, you may not see much better than fast ethernet speeds. Investigate "shoe shining" in regards to tape backups. Hopefully Veeam is hard at work more closely investigating its network to tape data mover service. Our old 1G connected DD's backup to tape around 30MB/s or so to our LTO-6, our new 10G connected DR's will run around 115MB/s or so to tape despite being able to raw copy data out of them much faster than that.
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EMC DD2200's
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby mdornfeld » Thu May 05, 2016 6:55 pm

Thanks for the great feedback rreed. Much appreciated.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby DaveWatkins » Thu May 05, 2016 9:00 pm 3 people like this post

We were in exactly the same boat, tape was a requirement and after much back and forward we ended up going with a Dell 3860f configured in RAID10 with big drives. They are only 7200RPM but the RAID10 keeps performance up for both read and write and while we could also use Windows 2012 dedup on top of it, we haven't yet. We will look at native Windows dedup when 2016 comes out but at the moment we have some files that 2012 would choke on. It honestly didn't end up being that much more expensive and to know we aren't going to have re-hydration issues when trying to put to tape was worth it.

We can easily max out our two LTO6 drives in the library from this storage while health checks are going on for other jobs and all our backup jobs bottlenecks are either network or source(depending on the site they are coming from)

The other consideration we had is we knew we had a lot of data that didn't dedup well so that changed the whole pricing situation to favor native disk
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby rnt-guy » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:25 pm

Hello. I realize this post is a few months old but it's very helpful. So thank you.

My question is about Active Fulls. My understanding is if we use synthetic fulls, all future SFs will be tied to the same files because the DD (w/ Boost btw) will start deduping all SFs against one another at the block level. Thus if something were to happen to the files or the filesystem against a block that is used by future SFs, then they could all be lost/corrupted?

Does this hold true if we do period active fulls? Are those files somehow unique and thus void of this risk? If they are also at risk of the same thing (meaning AFs are not safe and independent of one another because of DD's deduplication), is there any benefits to creating AFs when using with a DD w/boost?

Thanks :)
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:54 am

Active full reads all the data from the source storage, so is not dependent on the previous backup chain. In case some of the blocks were corrupt, the newly written blocks will not be deduped against them, since will be different.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby rnt-guy » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:21 pm

Thanks foggy. I forgot to reply back saying that :)

In the meantime we have another question. Might warrant a new thread but figured here might be best stop first.

We're deploying dd in our cloud host as the copy job destination for some of our customers. There are two goals:

1.As small as possible – they pay per GB backed up and budget is tight.
1a.This means we want the DD to back it up as efficiently as possible

2.Within the window (compute resources aren’t the bottleneck, bandwidth is)

So as small as possible and fast as possible. Easy, right?

That being said from our veeam experience we have a few questions:

1.In the Backup OnPrem job there’s a compression setting and a storage optimization setting.
2.In the Copy Job there’s a compression setting.
3.If we set compression to NONE on the backup job and then extreme on the copy job (while turning on DeCompress on the DD repository), will that be the best for DD’s own compression and deduplication algorithms?
4.Or If we turn on compression for the OnPrem backup job and then also on for the copy job (which will get decompressed upon arrival like above), is that ideal? Our concern is if when it decompresses it upon arrival in the copy job does it decompress just to how it was when the onprem job finished or does it decompress it as if no compression was ever used in backup or copy jobs?
5.How does the Storage Optimization setting factor in? My understanding is this is some sort of chunk/block size setting. Should this be extreme or Local Target IF the top goal is highest compression and deduplication by the DD?
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:40 pm

Compression settings in backup and backup copy jobs are independent, so you can set them as required (for example, optimal for the regular job and extreme for the backup copy, to minimize traffic). Set backup copy target repository to decompress. Set storage optimization to Local 16TB+. Basically, set everything as recommended for DD in the thread above. Don't forget that you need a gateway on your side to enable point-to-point transfer of compressed data and decompression on target, and consider using WAN acceleration.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby rnt-guy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:19 pm

thanks foggy.

so is there no advantage in terms of dedupe and compression efficiency by the DD if I send backups to it that we not compressed in the initial onsite backup job?

My understanding is that the decompress setting just undoes the compression done by the copy job, not that done by the onsite backup job also.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby foggy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:18 pm

Data is not compressed twice. If compression is enabled on the source job and backup copy job has different compression setting, it will decompress data and then compress it with its own level, prior the transfer. So source job compression settings do not affect how data is stored on backup copy target.
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Re: Recommended Backup Job Settings for EMC Data Domain

Veeam Logoby rnt-guy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:34 pm

Awesome. Thanks!

So, I guess to save time I should set the source job to be whatever compression we want (highest to use the least space on the local veeam repository drives), then match it in the copy job but make sure the decompress option is checked. This way the DD can compress it using it's own algorithms and dedupe better.

Will "Local target 16TB+" give it the best use of space on the local disks? or if I use something else that is better it will be worse for the DD's turn?
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