ReFS Summary...

Availability for the Always-On Enterprise

Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby m.novelli » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

MSMSMSMSMS wrote:Although following problem is not directly related to ReFS cluster size, it is still Veeam/ReFS related, so I am mentioning it here. Veeam doesn't have ReFS equivalent to their NTFS BitLooker technology, so it is backing up dirty ReFS blocks. We are seeing that our Exchange VM's with ReFS volumes, have backups that are almost twice the size of data that is visible on file system. E.g. our databases + OS is 8 TB, our Veeam full backup is 16 TB.


Wow :shock:
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby sg_sc » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:26 pm 1 person likes this post

Nice to know, but has nothing to do with ReFS for backup repository.

ReFS 64K with enough RAM, do not use per-VM and no more then weekly synthetic fulls, runs good.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby BGA-Robert » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:46 pm

Thanks for the update!

We've been holding on deploying to ReFS. This would be the back end repo for our Cloud Connect target. I feel like I'm hearing that could fail. I understand synthetic fulls and lots of deletes could be bad. That sounds like what we do.

Seems like when this topic comes up, I'm hearing "ReFS is good to go. Except for one more issue..."
I'm confused... :roll:

Any recommendation for a service provider's Cloud Connect repo???
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby sg_sc » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:54 pm

As a service provider I would suggest to stick with NTFS and maybe test some select clients on ReFS.
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[MERGED] Optimum Backup Job strategy, post ReFS

Veeam Logoby ferrus » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:08 am

I've been a Veeam user for a couple of years now, on Windows 2012 and NTFS.
The common recommendation for Tier 1 backups in this configuration, from these forums and consultants we dealt with - was a Forever Forward Incremental strategy.
Now ReFS appears to have changed the game significantly, in terms of the footprint of both storage and backup window.

There has been much discussion on the forum about the stability and configuration of ReFS, but I can't find anything in terms of any effect on the recommended Backup Job Configuration.
Previously we avoided synthetic fulls - as a rolling 28 day Forever Forward strategy was much more efficient; but are Synthetic Fulls, or even Active Fulls the better choice now?
(Presuming ReFS IS now the officially recommended option :?: )
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:43 am

You can find backup job configuration recommendations in the first post. Thanks!
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby SBarrett847 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:35 pm 1 person likes this post

BGA-Robert wrote:Any recommendation for a service provider's Cloud Connect repo???

I use ReFS for my Cloud Connect Repos. There are some limitations though, for example you can't use quotas in Veeam and use Fast Cloning to save space (I give customers individual VHDs instead). ReFS doesn't support mount points, so the number of VHDs are limited per server.

I also had issues with the Repo Server keeling over, until I gave it tons of memory.

That said, it is ticking over nicely now, and the Fast Cloning is worth the effort (IMO)
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby ferrus » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:32 pm 1 person likes this post

Gostev wrote:You can find backup job configuration recommendations in the first post. Thanks!


Didn't find much relevant information there (other than the basics), but there's a a lot of interesting discussion in this thread - https://forums.veeam.com/veeam-backup-replication-f2/refs-performance-issue-workaround-t43892-30.html

If I've understood the thread correctly, with ReFS there's no data-integrity benefit from running synthetic fulls - as they just reference blocks from previous restore points, rather than recreating them.
Forever Forward Incremental remains the most efficient method in terms of least block clone usage, and Active Full backups reset the block clone usage - hopefully returning fast-clone performance.

So my question is - is there still a reason for using synthetic full backups with ReFS? I can't see one from reading that thread.

Perhaps the strategy we're currently on - 28 day Forever Forward Incremental (without Fulls), is actually still the most efficient on ReFS.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby SBarrett847 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:34 pm

ferrus wrote:So my question is - is there still a reason for using synthetic full backups with ReFS? I can't see one from reading that thread.
.


GFS storage space saving is the only reason really. However if the Backup is un-encrypted, NTFS and Dedup might yield similar results.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby SyNtAxx » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:05 am

I think I'll be holding off on REFS until it is stable and a bit more mature.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:20 pm

You are right. We will look into this once ReFS gets better adoption as it comes to application servers specifically - right now, its use cases there are pretty limited. I think ReFS will sky rocket once Microsoft will enable the ability to boot from ReFS volumes, until then NTFS will still be the king inside VMs.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby ferrus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:46 pm

I feel as though a statement of Veeam's current position on ReFS could be beneficial.

My gut feeling at the moment is to hold off on ReFS across most of our repository's - apart from one which has it's own major performance issues. Currently the only job on that repo is 85% into a 44 hour merge - so even a broken ReFS may be better than the status quo.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby mkretzer » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:06 pm

@ferrus: Did you install the newest update? I am interested if it restores the good merge speed for you too....
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby ferrus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:41 pm

Haven't migrated yet - that's the 2012/NTFS duration.

I'm planning on migrating one Proxy/Repository server over, within the next 1-4 weeks.
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Re: ReFS Summary...

Veeam Logoby sg_sc » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:18 pm

I feel it would be better to not discuss ReFS for repo's and ReFS as filesystem for production VM's next to each other, it will just confuse everyone.
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