Comprehensive data protection for all workloads

Do you consider these system requirements adequate for H2 2022 release?

Poll ended at Jun 05, 2021 8:44 pm

Yes, I'm fine with them
128
83%
No, I'll comment below
26
17%
 
Total votes: 154

micoolpaul
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by micoolpaul »

Hi Gostev,

I think that most of these issues have been addressed now, the mention of ESU highlights what happens if you supported an OS where you have a dependency break if someone is using ESU vs not (understandable it's not likely but who knows what the next game changing exploits will be and how the industry must adapt) since non ESU customers can't just "patch to latest".

I have a question regarding interoperability between Veeam B&R and Veeam Agent in this case, if you're talking about discontinuing W7/W8/W10 pre 1903, historically you've supported both the latest version of Veeam Agent AND the previous version of Veeam Agent (as mentioned here:https://helpcenter.veeam.com/docs/backu ... ml?ver=110). Will it be a supported scenario to use Veeam Backup & Replication v12 with Veeam Agent for Microsoft Windows v5? If so then that gives people another year of aging out anyway.

I also fully support vCenter 6.5 as a minimum with ESXi host 6.0 as the minimum for hypervisor, it's a good compromise.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by chris.childerhose »

Coming from an MSP I think dropping vCloud 9.x and 10.0 is a mistake. We just moved our datacenters to 9.7 and are planning to upgrade to 10.2 later this year but there will be some that don't make it and drag into next year. Considering MSPs may not keep up to date as a regular customer of VMware it would be nice to see the vCloud versions for 9.x and 10.0 stay for at least one more release.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by skrause »

While I don't have any systems still running on Win7 personally, Microsoft is still supporting it for customers who pay them for Extended Support Updates until at least 2023. I would guess that a number of the people expressing concern about this are probably in situations where they are purchasing this level of support from MS because of special circumstances and are using agents.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecy ... /windows-7

Maybe allow V12 B&R to still manage and use V11 agents but without any new features or improvements (though that might be a larger task than just keeping support for win7) somewhat like vCenter can manage older hosts/clusters?

EDIT: oops, I missed page 2 I guess. Guys above said the same stuff as me.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by rdmtech »

I'll keep this short. I work for an MSP and over 65% of our clients are still running environments that include ESXi 6.0, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 and Exchange 2010. The likelihood of them upgrading before v12 is release is small due to the financial uncertainty the political environment and Covid-19 has provided. My vote would be to keep ESXi 6.0, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 and Exchange 2010 in v12 and evaluate the feasibility of dropping support for them in v13.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev » 3 people like this post

chris.childerhose wrote: Mar 08, 2021 3:07 pmComing from an MSP I think dropping vCloud 9.x and 10.0 is a mistake. We just moved our datacenters to 9.7 and are planning to upgrade to 10.2 later this year but there will be some that don't make it and drag into next year. Considering MSPs may not keep up to date as a regular customer of VMware it would be nice to see the vCloud versions for 9.x and 10.0 stay for at least one more release.
Please note that 9.7 goes out of support this month, and 10.0 in September this year (so half a year before V12 release). Given that, supporting them for one more year makes little sense, while it's definitely not "free": our QC will have to test against 4 versions instead of 2. So what you're advocating for here would actually impact your company and you personally: instead on focusing on actual 10.1 and 10.2 versions, our QC engineers will be diluted in dealing with 2x more test labs.

But I have some good news for you! In any case, we have no flexibility here as some of the new functionality we're developing in V12 for service providers requires APIs available in vCloud Director 10.1 or later only. Also, after checking with our VCSP engineers, most of our service providers have plans which are identical to your own. Plus, knowing our plans well in advance, those who were contemplating now have another reason to upgrade!

And those few who still drags vCloud Director update into the next year because of how they roll can just stay on V11. I mean, it's hard for me to understand why would the same service providers who are fine about staying on a long-unsupported vCloud Director version, at the same time have a strong desire to immediately go to the latest and greatest V12? I'd expect at least some consistency as it comes to the 3rd party software management practices within the same environment.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by chris.childerhose »

Yeah, I completely agree with what you said and will be advocating for us to get to 10.1 at least before year-end and we might even hit 10.2 this year. Thanks, @Gostev.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev » 1 person likes this post

@christiankelly thanks for sharing the hint about the ESU program. I knew it exists for Windows Server 2008, but I did not realize it can also be purchased for Windows 7. We will definitely take this into account for our considerations.

@micoolpaul we're mostly looking how we could stop testing some platforms and remove them from our test labs and test plans. Due to how seriously we take the quality of our software, our primary bottleneck has always been QC. The team is really struggling with new platforms piling up, but old platforms not going away. We just cannot hire and train fast enough!

So basically, there's no need to come up with workarounds like keep using old versions of agents, as for devs it costs nothing to keep Windows 7 support in the agent. In fact, for devs it's easier to keep Windows 7 support, as discontinuing means they have to implement new installation and upgrade logic that blocks Windows 7 :D

The question here is solely when our QC can remove Windows 7 from their test plans. This is the only way to get a meaningful impact on the release timing, ensure thorough testing of more actual and widely used OS versions, etc.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

rdmtech wrote: Mar 08, 2021 5:26 pm I'll keep this short. I work for an MSP and over 65% of our clients are still running environments that include ESXi 6.0, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 and Exchange 2010. The likelihood of them upgrading before v12 is release is small due to the financial uncertainty the political environment and Covid-19 has provided. My vote would be to keep ESXi 6.0, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 and Exchange 2010 in v12 and evaluate the feasibility of dropping support for them in v13.
Thanks, you have a very interesting situation for me to discuss. Can you please comment on this two questions:

1. Why can you not just stay on V11 in 2022, which will still be fully supported?

2. How do you see your customers staying on Exchange 2010 once it is out of support in October this year and with no security updates, in light of vulnerabilities like the OWA exploit last week, which let hackers into tens of thousands of production environments?
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Mildur » 1 person likes this post

Anton,
Exchange 2010 is end of life since October 2020, not this year. :)
https://docs.microsoft.com/de-ch/lifecy ... erver-2010
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Rascii »

Did we get an answer on the LTSC question? All of our servers are 2019 (1809 - LTSC).

And here's a link that includes SAC and LTSC support dates. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... lease-info
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by ITP-Stan »

Some customers have legacy software that still runs on Windows 7 PC's. These are locked down from internet access and are not primary workstations for anyone. But because of the legacy software they still need to be backed-up.

If we could keep an older version of the agent on there and let it back-up to a VBR v12 repo (as we do now) that would be fine.
We want to keep our backup infrastructure up-to-date (vmware VM's and WIN10 PC's mostly), but we still need some old PC's backed up aswell.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by rdmtech »

Gostev wrote: Mar 08, 2021 6:07 pm Thanks, you have a very interesting situation for me to discuss. Can you please comment on this two questions:

1. Why can you not just stay on V11 in 2022, which will still be fully supported?

2. How do you see your customers staying on Exchange 2010 once it is out of support in October this year and with no security updates, in light of vulnerabilities like the OWA exploit last week, which let hackers into tens of thousands of production environments?
1. They can stay on v11 and we'll have to field the questions as to reasons they can't upgrade. It's at this point a decision has been introduced. Either stay with Veeam or move to a different product that will support their current and future environments. That is something we want to prevent. I'm sure we'll be able to talk the majority of our clients into staying with Veeam, but now an opportunity has been presented and some will leave. This is something we want to prevent as it will result in lost revenue for Veeam and my company as we will have to use resources explaining why they need to stay. Please keep in mind that many upgrade cycles have been pushed back a year or two due to the current political and Covid-19 environment.

2. We see our clients staying with Exchange 2010 via the same reasons. Microsoft realizes this as well and there is a very good chance they will continue to issue emergency patches as they have in the past with other EOL/out of support products.

I hope this helps.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by DaveWatkins »

@Gostev

If the Agent drops 7/8/8.1 support and the user elects to use the last agent version that supports it. Will that older agent be able to be manually targeted to a v12 repo (even if the agent isn't managed by B&R)? I'm assuming with the proposed repo changes they won't be able too where as if the run-time data mover was still supported they may be able too. Having that capability may allow for some additional flexibility
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

Rascii wrote: Mar 08, 2021 6:45 pm Did we get an answer on the LTSC question? All of our servers are 2019 (1809 - LTSC).
And here's a link that includes SAC and LTSC support dates. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... lease-info
The original post never mentioned Windows Server LTSC releases like 2019 impacted anyhow in the first place :)
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

DaveWatkins wrote: Mar 08, 2021 9:49 pmIf the Agent drops 7/8/8.1 support and the user elects to use the last agent version that supports it. Will that older agent be able to be manually targeted to a v12 repo (even if the agent isn't managed by B&R)? I'm assuming with the proposed repo changes they won't be able too where as if the run-time data mover was still supported they may be able too. Having that capability may allow for some additional flexibility
I covered this in the earlier post above... the question is not about technical capability (which is there), but whether this will be a tested and officially supported configuration going forward. The problem we're trying to solve is specifically with the latter: too many OS and configurations for QC to test with new ones added constantly, but the old ones not being removed. And it's not like we can just stop testing it and hope it continues to works. It won't, because stuff breaks all the time due to other changes in the code... so we either support it, or we don't.

This is why simply staying on the previous version is beautiful for legacy platforms support: it does not change any longer, so it cannot break :D
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by micoolpaul » 1 person likes this post

Gostev wrote: Mar 08, 2021 6:01 pm @christiankelly thanks for sharing the hint about the ESU program. I knew it exists for Windows Server 2008, but I did not realize it can also be purchased for Windows 7. We will definitely take this into account for our considerations.

@micoolpaul we're mostly looking how we could stop testing some platforms and remove them from our test labs and test plans. Due to how seriously we take the quality of our software, our primary bottleneck has always been QC. The team is really struggling with new platforms piling up, but old platforms not going away. We just cannot hire and train fast enough!

So basically, there's no need to come up with workarounds like keep using old versions of agents, as for devs it costs nothing to keep Windows 7 support in the agent. In fact, for devs it's easier to keep Windows 7 support, as discontinuing means they have to implement new installation and upgrade logic that blocks Windows 7 :D

The question here is solely when our QC can remove Windows 7 from their test plans. This is the only way to get a meaningful impact on the release timing, ensure thorough testing of more actual and widely used OS versions, etc.
Thanks Gostev, it's really impressive how receptive Veeam have been to the community feedback in such a short time. I've moved my vote into camp "Yes" now.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by xudaiqing » 1 person likes this post

Gostev wrote: Mar 08, 2021 12:41 pm Veeam Agent for Microsoft Windows

Many concerns here, so let's go one by one:

Windows 7 will have been out of support (no security updates) for over 2 years when V12 ships. I appreciate it may still be fine to use in locked down environments (no Internet access) which have to deal with a legacy software, but no one really explained why these same environments cannot also stay on V11, along with all other legacy software versions they have? I would like to see some comments on this. Meanwhile, I will ask the team estimate the costs to continue support Windows 7.
The problem of Windows 7 in industry usage is we likely need to continue use them in next 5 to 10 years. I don't think V11 will have that long support time. Some kind of feature freeze legacy agent will probably needed
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by david.matthewson »

I agree this is generally too aggressive. Some of the products - viz: MSX 2010 - are getting near EoL but still supported by MS. I know a number of SME sites that use MSX2010 and will only *look* to replace it as EoL arrives. This all costs lots of money! Ditto VM 6.0 and even 5.5.

Also, please remember some of us support sites that have no Internet connections - often '.GOV' or similar ;} - so external threats are not really an issue, where as reliable backup & restore is. Often, IME, these sites tend to use older versions of s/w but still depend on good backup tools.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by TdSN007 »

I think is a RUGE DROPPING. For an MSP and with many costumers, I think many of my costumers will not upgrade the systems to stay with Veeam versions. Explain windows 7 end of support is a pain (but they will ask about the support of windows 2008r2), but also Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 version xyz is very strange. I think a pandemic slowed many projects, and upgrade of the systems is one of this.

Slow and step by step (v12, v13, v14) will be better for everyone. Droping support for systems year after year using software maker EOL AND a little sense of the market will be the best option. It´s my two cents.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

david.matthewson wrote: Mar 09, 2021 12:14 pmI agree this is generally too aggressive. Some of the products - viz: MSX 2010 - are getting near EoL but still supported by MS. I know a number of SME sites that use MSX2010 and will only *look* to replace it as EoL arrives.
Actually, Exchange 2010 EOL has already arrived half a year ago in October 2020. And we're talking about V12 which will be released in H1 2022, so by the time most customers upgrade it will be 2 years. Is 2 years since EOL enough time for customers to replace Exchange 2010 ?
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Andreas Neufert »

As well they will not fix the latest bugs on EOL plattforms (see the thousands of systems affected by the latest one). This force the customers to migrate anyway.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by nd39475 »

agree with all EOL OS.
However it is weird that CentOS 8 will be EOL, but not 7, especially considering that RHEL not EOL 7 nor 8.

FWIW, we try our best to not have EOL servers, We have had compatibility problems with RHEL8 however and still install RHEL7 for all new linux servers.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

@nd39475 see here for the reason https://wiki.centos.org/About/Product
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by paul.hambleton »

VMware NSX-V and NSX-T support?

I know you don't support NSX-T yet, but believe this is coming (and the sooner the better).

NSX-V is EoL at the end of this year. So will there be a transition period into v12 for NSX-V?
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

Actually, I'm not aware of any special functionality we have for NSX-V support in principle, so there's nothing to transition into V12.

I do remember us adding NSX-T support in V10 for restores and replication.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Andreas Neufert »

Regarding NSX-T we support today the N-VDS implementation that is as well rolled out since a while in VMware Cloud on AWS. We are working on improving the new NSX-T + VDS implementation option. It will become the default within VMware Cloud on AWS when you rollout VMC SDDC 1.15(?) later this year.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by Gostev »

Removed some off-topic posts before this gets out of hand. Folks, this is not a V12 feature request thread! Please, stay on topic as per the original post.
If you want to request a feature, create a separate topic... just search the forum first, as with 99% probability there's already an existing discussion.
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by ejenner »

Not sure if this is too far off the 'versions' subject but what about removing the requirement for consistency of OS version for proxy servers? In some configurations in our environment we are forced to run Windows 2012 on Veeam Proxy servers because Veeam won't allow you run a version different from the hyper-v environment you're interfacing with. We'll be phasing out Windows 2012 before EOL I hope and all my Veeam servers are Windows 2019 except where I cannot upgrade them. The proxy servers.

I may be wrong but I thought the version consistency requirement was historic and didn't actually matter from 2012 onwards. So can it be safely removed from V12 allowing us to upgrade our Veeam proxies to 2019 while continuing to protect 2012 Hyper-V environments?
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by vmtech123 » 2 people like this post

If the Hardware venders, or Software companies themselves don't' support it, why should Veeam have to?. lol

I'm shocked at how many people are running outdated unsupported software. I'll be on VMware7 by next year, and it is version 6.0 not 6.* from reading that. I've been on 6.7 for sometime and 7 in other areas. I am just waiting for a little while longer for the last environment. How long do you plan on running Server2008 and Windows 7 for ? And remember, If VMware can take a snapshot, Veeam will still back it up. You can still backup XP VM's with Veeam. I would assume this has more to do with the application aware processing.

It's a pain, but sometimes you have to keep the ball moving forward. Microsoft did the same thing a while ago dropping a TON of legacy support making their OS faster and smaller. Sure I have a few devices I had to turf and complained a bit at the time, but guess who still uses Windows at home? Had they not, I'd be complaining about how huge and slow Windows is anyways :P
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Re: [V12] System Requirements for our 2022 release

Post by WoenK »

nope...dont like it, way too broad and way to high versions (all Windows Servers below 20H2 ? seriously ? )
Also I do not understand why support for SQL 2005 gets dropped, SQL2008 ist then still supported but Exchange 2007 never was ?
And support for Exchange 2010 gets dropped ?
In this fiasco with the exchange right now, any upgrade to a highr version is a real tough selling point. WE have one client with a 2007 that was not affected by the current security holes (I admit, there are way more holes in that and he was lucky so far, but the current issues did not influence him)
Exchange 2021 is coming out, so some might rather want to spent another year on their 2010 or two on their install before migrating.


If it was up to me, hell yeah, update all.
But the client spents the money and holds it tight in these times.
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