VBR 9.5 - REFS

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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Out of curiosity, why do you rule out traditional, single node storage spaces + dual parity + ReFS? It supports using up to 100GB of SSD/NVMe for write-back cache, which helps significantly to overcome the traditionally poor write performance. Block clone eliminates the other biggest weakness (fairly poor random read/write I/O performance). The latter has definitely been the biggest issue I've seen with the storage spaces in the field, well, that and many people don't properly size the write back cache, which defaults to an almost useless 32MB for non-tiered storage spaces, although it's completely possible to configure bigger.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:06 pm

I don't rule it out but for a single node continuing to use ZFS and then formatting ReFS over the top via a single Windows 2016 standard VM for us provides far more benefits and increased performance and is well proven in terms of reliability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS

Here is a fascinating insight into ZFS from the orignal two engineers; Jeff Bonwick and Bill Moore way back in 2007!
http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1317400

Considering the ZFS architecture is nearly 10 years old, it is a tribute to the Sun engineers and if MC Hammer had a message for Microsoft it would probably be;
"you can't touch this"
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:42 pm 1 person likes this post

Sure, I'm not arguing against ZFS, I know lots about it, heck I was using ZFS for Veeam repositories via OpenSolaris back in 2010, and I can certainly see some of the coolness of running ReFS on top of ZFS (I actually have still have that setup in my lab!), but realistically, in testing the two (ReFS on ZFS vs ReFS on Storage Spaces) head to head, I've not been able to come up with any real performance advantages to ZFS vs ReFS, actually the native ReFS solution won pretty easily in raw write throughput. Admittedly, I didn't test with as many vdevs as you have and only 12 drives, and I suspect that would make a significant difference, but then I'd also be losing more space usable space. It just feels like it's getting harder to justify having the extra ZFS layer in there.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:51 am

from a technical perspective, I have now got 9.5 (I just used my pro partner login).
I did an in-place upgrade to 9.5 - everything went flawless.
Things are working as expected,except at the start of this thread, it was suggested that if a Re-FS file system is detected then the align backup file data blocks option (under advances settings for repository) would be greyed out. In our situation, the "align backup file data blocks" option is not greyed out or selected.

How do I know if Re-FS is being used properly or not?

thanks.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby adapterer » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:54 am

Force a synthetic full and watch space consumption?

To do this I just adjust job settings to create synthetic daily and change the server calendar forward one day each time I run the job.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:57 am

hmm, yeah might do that but it will end up corrupting our backup database, so might need to wait and see (or plan tests carefully). If you go to the advanced options on the repository do you see the "align backup file data blocks" greyed out? Also does the Veeam server itself need to be on Windows 2016 or just the backup repository hosting the Re-Fs? Currently our Veeam server is on windows 2012R2 and just our repository server set as a windows 2016 server at this stage.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby adapterer » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:02 am

If you are worried, just do a config backup first? But yeah I wouldnt test on 'prod' backups - maybe a test job?

Yes align data blocks is greyed out on mine but I did not deploy this until after 9.5 was installed.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:32 am

great - I've just added a new repository using the same server as previously but a new 60TB drive formatted as ReFS and now i see the option greyed out as expected.. great stuff.
So in my case the issue seems to be if you have an existing windows 2016 server hosting a Re-FS file system and you run an in-place upgrade, then there doesn't seem to be a way in the UI for it to properly detect the Re-FS file system. So I think if I switch the new backup jobs to that one then I should be good!
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:43 am

ashleyw wrote:great - I've just added a new repository using the same server as previously but a new 60TB drive formatted as ReFS and now i see the option greyed out as expected.. great stuff.
So in my case the issue seems to be if you have an existing windows 2016 server hosting a Re-FS file system and you run an in-place upgrade, then there doesn't seem to be a way in the UI for it to properly detect the Re-FS file system. So I think if I switch the new backup jobs to that one then I should be good!

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say in this post, sorry if that wasn't completely clear. There's simply no way to upgrade an existing, already created repo to support block clone, even if it was created previously on a properly supported ReFS volume. You can create a new repository on the same volume, move the files there (which would be basically instant since it's the same volume), and then remap all of the existing backups to this "new" repo, however, block clone still won't be enabled on the backup chain until the next full is created, either actively or synthetically.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:48 am 1 person likes this post

tsightler wrote:How do you get to $200K? As far as I understand, the retail price for Windows 2016 Datacenter is USD $6155, which covers the first 16 cores across 2 sockets (you need additional core grant licenses if you have more cores). That's only ~$25k USD street price for 4 nodes. And now you can do 2-node S2D if you really want to keep the price down while having some resiliency. Anyone with a volume license agreement will likely pay less than $5000.


My bad, I read around a couple of presentations where they were stating 2 cores per license, so I counted 64 cores over 4 nodes as 32 licenses needed, not 4.
So to recap and correct my statement for future readers, 16 cores are 6155 usd street price , so a 4 nodes 2 socket 8 cores cluster can be licensed with 25.000 usd. That's not bad and changes a lot. Many commercial backup appliances have a higher price for even a single machine. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:25 pm

tsightler wrote:Yeah, that's what I was trying to say in this post, sorry if that wasn't completely clear. There's simply no way to upgrade an existing, already created repo to support block clone, even if it was created previously on a properly supported ReFS volume. You can create a new repository on the same volume, move the files there (which would be basically instant since it's the same volume), and then remap all of the existing backups to this "new" repo, however, block clone still won't be enabled on the backup chain until the next full is created, either actively or synthetically.


Great stuff thanks Tom! I created a new repository pointing to the same Win2016 REFS server volume but made the directory e:\backup instead of previous e:\backups.
Then I went in and checked the Align blocks setting was greyed on that repository - which it was.
I then moved the old backup directories from the e:\backups to e:\backup and then went into each job and changed the repository target to be the new one (as well as the replicate meta data store and the configuration backup location).
All good.
I've now triggered an active full backup on the job chain and it's grinding away. I'm not seeing any significant load on the Re-FS or ZFS layer so I've increased the maximum concurrent task through to 6.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:53 am

just a quick heads up - we triggered the first job in the backup chain and said "Active Full" - I noticed that the subsequent chained jobs were still run as incremental jobs so from the UI, you need to select each job separately and select "Active Full".
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:03 pm

Hi, this is expected. The chaining is about executing the job, but it doesn't change the way the job is executed. It's like manually hitting "run" from the console, if an incremental was planned, that's the type that it would run.
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[MERGED] EMC Isilon connection recommendations

Veeam Logoby JoshuaPostSAMC » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:25 pm

We have an EMC Isilon with a ton of storage that I'll be able to utilize for Veeam backups among other things.

Today we have it setup as a CIFS repository with the backup server being a VM connected to it over 10 GB network. I just found out that it can also present storage as NFS or iSCSI, so looking to see if there would be improvements to switch to one of these, although it would still all go over the network.

I've read something about using NFS and a Linux server for the repository, but what gains would there be?
I also saw that Server 2016 with ReFS has some impressive gains, but would those still apply to an iSCSI attached disk, or would that only really apply to local disk?

I'm not necessarily dissatisfied with performance today other than Merge/Compact times, but any improvements are always welcome.
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[MERGED] Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby PTide » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:18 pm

It should work fine with an iSCSI attached disk since there is no difference for system if the disk is locally attached or via iSCSI - it is still a block device.

Thanks
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