Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby poulpreben » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:58 pm

Pretty sure, yes. It is using SATA 6 TB drives and Intel S3500 SSDs (the SATA version of S3700).
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby NightBird » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Don't forget that SAS backplane is backward compatible with SATA drive.
I think that you can plug SAS ou SAS MDL drives without problem with the embedded P840ar controller, so the backplane should be SAS ;)

For the read hdd cage kit you can plug it to the embedded B140i SATA controller (that is SATA only) or with the optional option HPE
SAS Controller Mode for Rear Storage ;)
The main 24 LFF or 48 SFF drives cage backplane should be SAS :)
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby poulpreben » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:31 pm

In that case, just ensure you get it configured with NL-SAS drives instead of SATA ;-)

Thank you for the clarification!
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby NightBird » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:37 pm 1 person likes this post

With scale-out backup repo it should rocks :wink: :mrgreen:
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:58 am

Andreas Neufert wrote:Reverse Incremental is in the product since v1 and is a good recommendation.
Depending on the amount of VMs you want to backup to that apollo system and the nature of the Apollo Raid Controllers forward incremental chains work a bit more performant on this system as more sequential processing happens on storage side.
In most cases Reverse Incremental is as well a good choice for Apollo systems. Just test and compare it.


Testing for an environment with 1000 VMs is always a bit difficult. We would need at least 4 physical repository/proxy servers for our environment. So each of the Apollo's would need ~100-150 TB (VM usage is ~180 TB and we want to keep 15 weeklies and 14 dailies). I can test this with a couple of VMs but nothing near 1000. So a good recommendation of what is possible and what not would be nice. There is always the option to use an SAN device for this. I'm evaluating the price difference at the moment. This is easier than the performance to be honest.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:00 pm

Both will work for sure. (Reverse and Forward Incremental).
Forward Incrmental would work better with Apollo Storage and Controllers. So my suggestion is to use it.
If you backup a good number of VMs and Reverse Incremental finishs in nearly the same time (VM snapshots are a bit longer open) there is no blocker to use RI.

Just one thing needs to be considered at Apollo. MS Filesystems support Checkdisk processes only up to 64TB. So you should create multiple volumes at the array to be on the save side at Microsoft.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:55 pm

The filesystem gives me some headaches. Even on our larger fileservers we don't use NTFS filesystems larger than 10 TB. And we are having enough issues with them.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:00 pm

You can install Linux on the apollos as well so that you can use them as repository servers => then you have to create additional Proxy and Veeam Servers.
Maybe as well an idea to use it as host and ceate backup server + linux repo + windows proxy on it... maybe with Hyper-V to use the Host as DirectSAN Backup with FC if needed.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby bg.ranken » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:18 pm

So poulpreben, do you have any write ups or anything else on the 4200 yet or was what you posted in this thread the only information you had so far?

I'd like to know what you actually recommend in terms of configuration you would change from the model you got. Were you happy with the performance of the SATA controller or would you say it's best to stick with SAS? Any performance benchmarks done? Any other configuration issues other than the lack of FC HBA?
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:16 am

Andreas Neufert wrote:You can install Linux on the apollos as well so that you can use them as repository servers => then you have to create additional Proxy and Veeam Servers.
Maybe as well an idea to use it as host and ceate backup server + linux repo + windows proxy on it... maybe with Hyper-V to use the Host as DirectSAN Backup with FC if needed.


If we use the Apollo as physical repro server with linux we would also need additional physical servers as proxies with FC connection? With "use it as host and ceate backup server + linux repo + windows proxy" you mean a host as hypervisor with a linux VM on it and proxy and backup server installed on it not as VM?
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:21 am

@Prix, correct. That was just an idea. You can add the capacity to the VM with path through disks.

@Randall,
In our Lab we got a Apollo 4200 Gen9 with SATA configuration and smallest CPUs. Primary Storage System was a 3PAR with 18 SSDs and round about 30 SAS and NearLine Disks. Apollo was by far not the bootleneck here when we backed up some hundred VMs. As it was not the bottleneck any pefromance publishing would be not got. At Active Full it was at least able to handle 1GB/s Backup Stream (this is read at Source).

The Apollo isn´t that complicated pice of hardware. It is a Standard Server DSL380 gen9, Raid Controller and direct attached storage in one chassy. So everything what you would size on such a default server system apply to the appollo as well.
- Buy the sweetspot of CPU (price/performance)
- Add enough RAM 64GB (RAM is cheap)
- Add the best RAID controller that you can afford (at least battery buffered with the option of Raid10, Raid50 and Raid60). Don´t save money here!
- Add FC HBAs with max speed of your environment if you want to do DirectSAN withFC. If not available in the official option list, you can add standard FC HBAs as it is a normal server with PCIe Slots.
- Add 10GbE cards or use default ones if available
- Use the Best disks you can afford.
- Use SAS disks and Backplanes (you would not buy a SATA Server for your hosts... so you should not buy it as well for backup)
- Redundant Power
- Colling + USV is important here as well.
- Protect the Server physically

By design of that System you can backup some hundred VMs for sure to that system. It will perform well in most of the scenarios. If you think that you would use 100% of the Disk Subsystem in case of Capacity and Space together with thousands of VMs, you should think about to buy a more redundant storage system at one point. For example some DL380 server with a small 3PAR and redundant controllers and Storage pathes.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby poulpreben » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:33 am

bg.ranken wrote:So poulpreben, do you have any write ups or anything else on the 4200 yet or was what you posted in this thread the only information you had so far?

To be fair, Andreas has conducted all the testing for the whitepaper, so I totally agree with the checklist he has already posted above :) Since we were not able to make the Apollo server sweat even at 1 GB/s backup throughput from our 3PAR, I am planning on doing some simple I/O tests with 'fio' this Friday. We are not including these tests in the whitepaper, as the configuration we are testing only has SATA drives, and thus the performance results will be worse than what most other customers will be experiencing. If you are interested, I will be more than happy to post them here.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby bg.ranken » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:35 pm

poulpreben wrote:
bg.ranken wrote:So poulpreben, do you have any write ups or anything else on the 4200 yet or was what you posted in this thread the only information you had so far?

To be fair, Andreas has conducted all the testing for the whitepaper, so I totally agree with the checklist he has already posted above :) Since we were not able to make the Apollo server sweat even at 1 GB/s backup throughput from our 3PAR, I am planning on doing some simple I/O tests with 'fio' this Friday. We are not including these tests in the whitepaper, as the configuration we are testing only has SATA drives, and thus the performance results will be worse than what most other customers will be experiencing. If you are interested, I will be more than happy to post them here.


Oh I'd be more than happy to get more information, this is honestly the most intriguing backup device I've seen in a while. While I know Veeam is storage agnostic I remember when Gostev last spoke about something that was pretty different it turned out pretty good (Cisco C3160 I think?)

Honestly storage density + price + performance seems to be at just the right sweet spot. Are you planning on releasing the whitepaper as well?

And Andreas, thanks for all the work you've done on this. I actually have a question regarding that 3PAR option. I'm not a big enough shop that we're into the 1000s of VMs so I don't have insight into a bigger network like that, but wouldn't it still be a better option to go with local DAS based on the new features in Veeam 9? At this point it seems like you could throw multiple servers with DAS (Apollo, DL380s, or other variant from other vendors) and combine it with the scale-out repository and backup copy jobs to get completely redundancy in your backup data. I'm not sure if it would be cheaper once you get into the bigger scales but it still seems with the same disks that you would get better performance over DAS to the same disks than you would get with a 3PAR over FC or 10g E. I'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:48 am

I received a quote for a 4510 with 2 x E5-2630 and 256 GB RAM, 1 x 10GB NIC (no FC HBA yet), P840 RAID controller and 47 x 4 TB SATA 7.200 disks. The price looks promising but I think I've to readjust some parts. 256 GB maybe is a bit too much for repository + proxy server what is more reasonable number? 64 GB? I guess we will need 4 server for our 1000 VMs. A backup copy will be stored on StoreOnce. The choice of the disks and RAID configuration is also not easy, the HP quick spec document lists 2 pages with drives (http://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/GetDocumen ... c=de&lc=de).

Currently configured:
HP 4TB 6G SATA 7.2K rpm LFF (3.5 inch) Low Profile Midline 1yr Warranty Hard Drive 797265-B21

I think SATA is not a good idea, maybe SAS with 7.200 rpm?

HP 4TB 6G SAS 7.2K rpm LFF (3.5inch) Low Profile Midline 1yr Warranty Hard Drive 797267-B21

The price of this drive will be ~double compared to the SATA one.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby poulpreben » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:01 pm

64 GB is a bit on the small side. I think 128 GB RAM should be sufficient, as you only have 12 cores in total. But RAM is not going to ruin your budget anyway, so I suspect you will not save big bucks by cutting back on that.

SAS is more expensive than SATA for a reason. It is simply a much more reliable data path (I can only recommend reading the article I linked earlier). If you can afford it, definitely go for SAS.

For estimating the storage requirements for you environment, you can always have a look at the Restore Point Simulator here > http://rps.dewin.me.
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