Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby poulpreben » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:49 am

Exactly - what Andy said! Thanks :)
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:59 pm

It's very hard for me to get a feeling what we really need for Veeam as primary backup target and how we might be limited then (reverse inc etc). I learned that a StoreOnce 6500 might not be the best idea. On the other hand servers with DAS / cheap disks in RAID 6 might be sufficient. As usual getting a demo system with the desired configuration and testing it with real world workloads is not always possible. For our current backup environment (not Veeam and with classic agent backups) we used a couple of HP EVA's as disk pools - but they were simply not fast enough. Now we are using 2 all flash 3PAR's just for our B2D which is then written to tape and deleted afterwards (so no real B2D).

It would be very nice to have proxy/repository with DAS as SOBR compared to a additional SAN device.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:40 pm

As I said before we had no issues with writing a 1Gbps backup read stream after deduplication an compression to the apollo. Prebens tests show that the Apollo was far away from it´s maximum throughput.

Multiple Apollos in a SoBR environment will help to boost performance in a scale out way.

My tests with another Storage System showed that a 48 disk configuration Raid60 (4+2) was fast enough to handle 4GBps veeam backup read stream.
To get such a random read stream (CBT) out of a source storage system is only possible with SSD only VMware storage systems in most cases. (not backup target)

So potentially you will not run into trouble with the Apollo.

It really depends on your Environment that you want to backup. Maybe you can describe a little bit more your environment. How many data and how many VMs. Daily change rate,...

StoreOnce/Datadomain and other Dedup devices are not prefered as primary backup targets as their deduplication engines have by design a random read penalty when you extract the data. So Instant VM Recovery, File Level Recovery and Explorer based Recovery aren´t that fast and in some cases not usable with it. These systems job is to deduplicate as high as possible, so they are good candidates for storing your long term GFS chains on it as secondary backup. At best cases with Catalyst and DDboost integration to streamline syntetic file operations.

I have customer with 2000 VMs backing up to EVAs with good performance. It depends on the configuration. I had never ran into a customer that really needed a all flash system for backup targets as their source storage is mainly the bottleneck.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:38 am

And as an additional node, you DO NOT want your production storage to be the bottleneck, as probably at the point the source will be 100% loaded in reading data, the production VMs will suffer from lack of I/O. One of the reason for example we introduced backup I/O control in v8.

More than pure performance, I'd look at different parameters like backup windows, or RPO. How frequently you want to run your backups? Would you be ok with backups running 4 hrs a day, or not? And from here understand what you need. It may be that the first upgrade to reach your business goals would be the production storage, or the network, even before the backup target. With the new SOBR technology is damn easy to add an additional target to improve performance if the first one is not enough.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:44 pm

late reply.... We have now received several proposals from distributors for a Veeam backup environment (both hardware and software, 156 Sockets, ~200 TB). We explicitly asked them if they think multiple Apollo Proxy/Repository servers with local disk would be an alternative as primary backup target instead of SAN (and SAN storage as secondary target). None of them included Apollo's in their offer. Instead they included MSA 2040 arrays + DL380G9 server. The throughput of the Apollo's would not be sufficient for what we need (or asked, I think we told them we need 1 GB/s) and they can not guarantee that the backups will finish in the backup window. Not sure if this is just because they don't want to sell Apollos or that 1 GB/s is indeed not possible (I doubt this).
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby poulpreben » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:49 pm

1 GB/s write is quite a lot. What is your reasoning for this requirement?

200 TB with 10 % daily change rate, 2x data reduction and an 8 hour backup windows requires only ~3 Gbit/s => 375 MB/s.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:56 pm

It depends what you had defined. 1GB/s at Active Full Source Stream lead into a semi sequential stream at the apollo below 512MB/s. An Incremental run of 1GB/s at source is comparable with a 5GB/s Active Full and lead into a random read write of 300-400MB/s at target. If you defined it the other way at target speed it will increase ressources at min 2-3x depending on the definition.

If I remember right Apollo Servers are sold through the HPE Server team and MSAs are sold through the HPE Storage Team. Both uses pretty the same components. Basically a Apollo is a DL380 in a bigger chassis with more internal disks.
Maybe you get more discount at HPE storage team for a specific amount of disks compared with the server team. As well the partners have their standard concepts where they are sure which server and storage achived what throughput, while Apollos are not so common in daily usage (Backup Targets are Storage Fokused and you speak with HP Storage Team).

Based on our tests Apollo can handle for sure a 1GB/s source stream at active full (which we used for testing), see above messages.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:02 pm

poulpreben wrote:1 GB/s write is quite a lot. What is your reasoning for this requirement?

200 TB with 10 % daily change rate, 2x data reduction and an 8 hour backup windows requires only ~3 Gbit/s => 375 MB/s.


The complete backup volume is 550-600 TB, Veeam would only backup VM's, a different application databases and physical servers. I think we only included one number for the whole request and not separate numbers for the different tools.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:12 pm

Oh and I forgot... If you look at the 1GB/s on VMware side (Veeam Active Full) and use 4 Apollos, because of deduplication and compression you need (/2 /4) 125MB/s per Apollo System.
If you had definied it by 1GB/s at one Apollo this is pretty tough as we operate on a 512KB block level.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby pirx » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:35 pm

That was my argument too and I'm still waiting on a phone call to discuss this with them.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:11 am

Maybe you can send me the requirement documentation by mail so that I can look at it.
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby ivordillen » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:10 pm

pirx,
MSA in the proposal was that with SSD for caching? I have a MSA2040 and it writes fast 500-800MB/s but when I do reversed incremental the speed drops to 20-30MB/s so random IOPS are not good.

Would adding 4x1.6TB SSD to the read/write cache be a good solution?

Does anybody has had this config/issue?

kind regards
Ivor
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Re: Veeam Backup Server HP Apollo 4200

Veeam Logoby Andreas Neufert » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:42 am

I only tested Apollos with enabled smart cache (2 mirrored SSDs) as write back cache. This configuration performed well (see above feedback).
20-30MB/s even without smart cache is too less performance. Please check above configuration details and our Apollo configuration whitepaper:
https://www.veeam.com/wp-hpe-apollo-ser ... rings.html
The Apollo WP is maybe built for another focus, but settings are the same for your environment.
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