Veeam Linux Appliance

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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby totoche » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:11 am

+1 for a Linux proxy backup and Wan accelerator.
because the cost of licensing is limiting. Appliance of course
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby colossus610 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:52 am 3 people like this post

Delo123 wrote:Please don't remove the "windows application", ever. Please please please no HTML5 stuff as main application.

Better than Flash...*ahem* looks sideways at the other product we all know did THAT to us...')
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby mcz » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:54 am

Many people here and out there are requesting linux proxies and all that has been said from veeam side was "We would like but there are some technical limitations which make it impossible for using linux as proxy appliance".

Ok, good to know but I'm curious to hear what the limitations are... From a customer's point of view, the roles of a proxy are:

- reading data from disks
- sending data over network to repository
- connecting with os's for script execution, vss, etc.

I think the first two arguments could also be managed by linux, probably the last one would be more tricky or even impossible. Are my assumptions right or is it more about incompatibilities with file systems and such things?

I know that we are here talking about technical details which could be top secret for veeam and I understand that veeam tries to hide those information, but probably there is a way to give us here a better understanding why only windows can do the job without giving too much information. Sometimes you have discussions about licensing and costs and then you should be able to argue why only windows can do the job...
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby owen.wright » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 am

+1 for linux backup proxy and veeam appliance in general.
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby bertdhont » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:34 pm

+1 for linux backup proxy!!
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby kawiMTF » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:37 pm

mcz wrote:Many people here and out there are requesting linux proxies and all that has been said from veeam side was "We would like but there are some technical limitations which make it impossible for using linux as proxy appliance".

Ok, good to know but I'm curious to hear what the limitations are... From a customer's point of view, the roles of a proxy are:

- reading data from disks
- sending data over network to repository
- connecting with os's for script execution, vss, etc.

I think the first two arguments could also be managed by linux, probably the last one would be more tricky or even impossible. Are my assumptions right or is it more about incompatibilities with file systems and such things?

I know that we are here talking about technical details which could be top secret for veeam and I understand that veeam tries to hide those information, but probably there is a way to give us here a better understanding why only windows can do the job without giving too much information. Sometimes you have discussions about licensing and costs and then you should be able to argue why only windows can do the job...


I think, but that's just my personal view, it is because of Microsoft Volume Shadow Copy Service. I'm not a Linux pro. I don't know if there is a tool, or something, that can be executed from Linux, to execute a VSS within Windows OS. But as we know it already, Veeam is "agentless", but that means only that the VSS agent is injected during runtime of backup and removed afterwards. So it's not really a Linux thing. Also Linux should be able to inject a Windows service into a Windows VM and remove it after backup.
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby YouGotServered » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:18 am 1 person likes this post

I've gotta agree here, +1 for a Linux proxy appliance. My SQL team would go bananas if I deployed a Veeam proxy on their production VM so that I could get faster backups off that host ;)

The Windows proxies are fantastic, don't get me wrong, but we would definitely see wider adoption if there were a free (aka, non $900 for 2 2016 VMs if you only have 8 cores or less) option.
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:04 am 1 person likes this post

YouGotServered wrote:we would definitely see wider adoption if there were a free (aka, non $900 for 2 2016 VMs if you only have 8 cores or less) option.

But you don't have to go with Windows Server? Remember we support client OS versions as well, which are the same exact kernel as Windows Server - but so much cheaper. And you still get automatic and prompt security patching for those, which is a big benefit over Linux appliances, where you are dependent on the vendor to find vulnerabilities and issues patches (and no vendor will ever have a security team on staff with hundreds of world's best security engineers constantly looking for vulnerabilities, like Microsoft has).
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby totoche » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:12 am

And they do not stop in finding ...
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby YouGotServered » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:45 pm

Gostev wrote:But you don't have to go with Windows Server? Remember we support client OS versions as well, which are the same exact kernel as Windows Server - but so much cheaper. And you still get automatic and prompt security patching for those, which is a big benefit over Linux appliances, where you are dependent on the vendor to find vulnerabilities and issues patches (and no vendor will ever have a security team on staff with hundreds of world's best security engineers constantly looking for vulnerabilities, like Microsoft has).

Ah, duh. Good point Gostev. I guess being in the enterprise space, I never thought about a desktop OS. Definitely a cheaper alternative for sure.

If they were Linux appliances, however, I would be deploying them like Oprah. "YOU get a proxy! YOU get a proxy! AND YOU get a proxy!"
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby csydas » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:57 pm

totoche wrote:And they do not stop in finding ...

Well what do you expect? Linux appliance is non-trivial due to VSS, I would assume. Like, for the most basic operations (crash consistent), I'm sure it'd work. But what good is a crash consistent in most cases? When 95% of your workload is Windows, what are you going to do? You can't get in on those Oracle and SQL VMs without VSS. If there's some secret you know about getting VSS interactions on Linux, it'd be great if you could share. But the work flow is clear here: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc785914(v=ws.10).aspx

You've gotta have something interacting with VSS services. And I have to believe MS would be protecting that pretty strongly, so reverse engineering is right out. So you'd be left with a new component to install and basically have to work from the ground up on a bunch of different server components Windows side.

Now, a Linux appliance for Linux, that'd be great and pretty spiffy. Even give it a plugin and let vendors and devs build their own quiescencing plugins or whatever.

But the point is, a Linux appliance isn't just some trivial thing. It's not a matter of "port the veeam agent over to *nix and call it a day", you lose tons of functionality.
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby mcz » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:25 am

csydas, microsoft-links seems to be dead, can you please correct it? Thanks!
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:54 am 5 people like this post

@Michael, I've fixed the link for you.

csydas wrote:But the point is, a Linux appliance isn't just some trivial thing. It's not a matter of "port the veeam agent over to *nix and call it a day", you lose tons of functionality.

Correct. I would put it this way - it would be trivial if Veeam was not so advanced and had all those "invisible" features that make a huge difference. For example, one type of issues we've ran into is our advanced NTFS processing features like BitLooker: they work perfectly on Windows proxies (using native NTFS driver), but crash left and right on Linux proxy with its NTFS driver. We wasted much time on this issue and gave up at some point.

One valid use case for Linux proxy that I am considering is the protection of clusters running purely Linux workloads - we do have such customers and this functionality would benefit them. There, we obviously would not have to worry about all that NTFS-related functionality. But then again, how do you prevent the rest of users from getting excited, deploying Linux proxies everywhere else and starting to open support cases complaining how this or that no longer works, or performs worse? That is always my challenge - how to ensure that some new feature does not impact customer satisfaction with our solution, considering that just about nobody reads the manual?

All in all, our choice of Windows platform for everything comes from one simple number - 90% of all VMs running on vSphere run Windows OS. It's not that we do not have any Linux expertise - if you were using Veeam back in its early versions, you know that all this product could do originally is process VMs running on "fat" ESX host with [effectively] an on-host Linux-based proxy. However, the introduction of ESXi and some our first innovations - as well as very limited development resources - have pushed us to focus on Windows proxies at the time.
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby mcz » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:22 pm 1 person likes this post

Anton, thanks for fixing the link.

Gostev wrote:But then again, how do you prevent the rest of users from getting excited, deploying Linux proxies everywhere else and starting to open support cases complaining how this or that no longer works, or performs worse? That is always my challenge - how to ensure that some new feature does not impact customer satisfaction with our solution, considering that just about nobody reads the manual?


Probably there should be tons of warnings/information during proxy deployment which tells the users that linux appliances only work with linux vm's. Another option would be that during sessions like backup, replication, etc. an information record would be displayed e.g.

"source VM has Windows OS, therefore linux-proxies won't be used"

Probably this idea isn't new and has already been discussed before, but if not, it will probably help :wink:
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Re: Veeam Linux Appliance

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:07 pm

Yes, I was thinking of simply enlightening our intelligent load balancer so that it won't assign Linux proxies to Windows VMs in cases when those advanced guest processing options are enabled in the job settings (which they are by default). Should be doable, but I did not discuss this with the devs yet as we're not working on Linux proxies for the immediate update.
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