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No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 4:19 pm
by CraigL2112
Hello everyone -

I'm very pleased to see Catalyst support added to v9 and am eager to kick the tires and see how much better the performance is, especially over FC. Am curious since there doesn't appear to be Catalyst Copy support (for directing StoreOnce to replicate to another StoreOnce appliance), what the play is to replicate backups that live on a Catalyst store? The only thing I can think of would be do maybe do a Backup Copy to a NAS share on the second appliance? Obviously, this would probably require rehydration on the source side, then RE-dedupe on the second appliance.......

Just thinking out loud here. Anyone have any ideas?

-Craig

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 4:32 pm
by nefes
Please review this post by Gostev, which describes why we don't support Catalyst Copy.

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 4:56 pm
by CraigL2112
Doesn't this somewhat defeat the purpose of Catalyst, though? IE: Only replicating new blocks to the target appliance?

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 5:38 pm
by Gostev
This particular purpose, it does defeat. But Catalyst does many other things which we all do support.

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 5:54 pm
by marco.horstmann
CraigL2112 wrote:Only replicating new blocks to the target appliance?
Hi Craig,
Backup Copy will copy only new backuped blocks too. Ok, its maybe a little bit more then a Copy directly
between StorOnce with their own protocol, but its more secure reliable in my opinion. If you have corruption
inside your first StorOnce you get it replicated to the second system. With Backup Copy you have additional
healthchecks to make sure that our backupfiles wasn't corrupted by e.g. a media error or spontaneous bit state change.

Regards
Marco

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 7:54 pm
by CraigL2112
Guys -

Thanks a ton for your responses. I appreciate it.

I'll be honest -- this feels like somewhat of a step backwards for us StoreOnce users. As it stands now, StoreOnce fields the replication -- with this change, that load is moved downstream to Veeam. I can only assume you guys have internally measured the performance impact of this....is there any data you can share?

Fellow StoreOnce users -- what do you think about there not being actual Catalyst Copy support?

-Craig

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 7:57 pm
by Gostev
Craig, what change are you talking about? You can still setup and use StoreOnce replication if you like, just as you did before? It's just that we do not recommend this approach in conjunction with data protection, and thus don't want to encourage it by adding built-in management. Thanks!

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 7:59 pm
by CraigL2112
Gostev -

I can only assume you mean if we are backing up to a CIFS share. I'm talking about if I do a Catalyst backup and NOT being able to do a Catalyst Copy (like we do in Netbackup) to get the data moved to our other StoreOnce which lives offsite.

-Craig

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 8:08 pm
by SyNtAxx
I'm interested in this scenario as well. I have a StoreOnce 6500 in two locations. One is my primary Datacentre and the second is the DR location. Running Backup copy jobs for 1000s of vms is not optimal in my opinion.

-Nick

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 8:54 pm
by CraigL2112
I agree, Nick. In your case especially, you paid big bucks for those 6500s and they should be doing your heavy lifting (replication!) for you -- not your backup software. Catalyst Copy is one of the selling points of StoreOnce in general, so this decision to not support it is somewhat puzzling.

I'd be curious to hear what HP/IBRIX engineers think about the rationale of "you might replicate corrupt data" as the reason for not supporting it. I wonder why Symantec doesn't make the same claim.....

-Craig

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 13, 2016 10:43 pm
by Gostev
Actually we did discuss this with HP many times on many levels, as obviously they were pushing us hard to implement this as well. They understand and agree with our position. On our last meeting at VeeamON, we brainstormed some ideas together on how we can build robust solution based on Catalyst replication, and will consider them for the next major release.
CraigL2112 wrote:I wonder why Symantec doesn't make the same claim.
Because they sell backup, not restore. We sell availability, and actually care for your ability to restore when needed.

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 14, 2016 12:27 am
by CraigL2112
Don't get me wrong.. I'm a huge fan (and paying customer) of Veeam..we literally have a 100% success rate with restores. Can't beat that!

...but we also have a 100% restoration success rate of many, many TB of data we have backed up with Netbackup. It's the whole garbage-in-garbage-out scenario -- if you do a crappy job installing and configuring ANY product, your end result (in this case, your ability to restore) may not be all that stellar.

If you haven't, you really may want to consider polling customers about the decision to not support Catalyst Copy -- I'm suggesting this with my 'customer' hat on. I think you'll find most who see that there is Catalyst support (and understand what it means) will assume that Copy is part of it and be highly disappointed when they find out it's not.

The best analogy for this I can think of for this... is like returning a kickoff in football, running 70 yards in the open field then purposely tackling yourself. It makes my head hurt to think about.

Again, this is with my 'customer' hat on.

With all of this being said, I'm excited to do some tests with v9 to see how much faster our jobs run over FiberChannel, and how long replication takes with the Copy job..................

-Craig

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 14, 2016 2:03 am
by Gostev
As a matter of fact, we did poll customers - implicitly, through those support cases on failing recoveries.

I can tell you quite honestly that we ourselves did not realize this issue existing 5 years ago, until we got our first few thousands of customers. But now with nearly 200'000 customers, the absolute number of occurrences when storage-based replication failed customers data protection strategy big times became scary. And more often than not, it costs people their jobs. Honestly, I much my users "highly disappointed" with lack of some features in Veeam, than losing their job a few months later.

It's unfortunate that you could not attend VeeamON, as I gave a number of real-world examples on a couple of related breakout sessions. It was an eye opener for many, from those conversations I overheard leaving the room.

Anyway, you don't need to convince me in benefits of storage-based replication either - we will gladly leverage it as soon as we find a way to build a reliable solution based on one.

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 14, 2016 1:53 pm
by SyNtAxx
Ok, so can somebody explain to me how a large enterprise can move his data from one location to the other if they cant reliably count on built in replication from a unit such as a HP StoreOnce 6500 (big $) ? Backup Copy jobs on 1000s of vms isnt going to cut it. Im all ears.

-Nick

Re: No Catalyst Copy support?

Posted: Jan 14, 2016 2:28 pm
by nefes
Have you tried backup copy job in v9 between Catalyst stores already? With all improvements, made in v9, it should take reasonable time.