Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 shares

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Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 shares

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:17 pm 4 people like this post

Hi all,

I was not sure to start the topic here or in Hyper-V specific section
Apologies if I made the wrong choice.

Change block tracking, the most beautifull invention imho that's required to backup large environments.
Unfortunatly it's only supported on SMB 3.0 shares presented by Window hosts.

But I can imagine that a some users have a Synology, Qnap, etc...NAS that is used to store the VM's.
Others entered a new area with real converged solutions like Nutanix, Simplivity, etc...

I myself have created a cluster with Nutanix nodes.
Nutanix uses local storage which is presented via SMB 3.0 to the Hyper-V nodes.
Backup and so work fine and specially parallel processing is awesome on this scale out solution.
The only backside of this is the lack of CBT support.
This implies that every night I need to do a full scan, which results in reading the FULL share!

It has such an impact, that I might be obliged to make major choices between two products I love so much.

As my cluster will grow fastly towards 12TB and I'm able to process currently around 1TB/hour, i'll never be able to backup my environment within the backup window.

I've already received words that I would be hard to do, as CBT driver has some limitations.
But somewhere i'm convinced that putting together the force of Veeam and Nutanix development team, a solution could be found.
Who knows, other non-windows SMB 3.0 providers are looking along and willing to help, cause afterall who wants to enter the market without
beeing able to be compatible with the n°1 backup software!

Do you find yourself in same situation or just agree that such effort would help the community, then please "like" or comment this thread to catch the developpers attention.
All input, including technical deep dive stuff, is welcome.
I can always forward it myself to the people I know within Nutanix.

Regards,

Bjorn Lagace
System Engineer
Ter Beke
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby davy.neirynck » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:48 am 1 person likes this post

Hi Bjorn,

I couldn't agree more, we are more and more looking into these types of converged solutions, it's only normal that we need to count on this to work.

Regards,
Davy Neirynck
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:09 pm 2 people like this post

Hi all. Thank you for your feedback!

Back when we were designing our Hyper-V changed block tracking, we have been choosing between the two architectures, one of which allowed CBT on generic SMB shares. We had prototypes built for both, and found that one to be very unreliable in real world during situations like connection drops or I/O queue overfilling. And because reliability and data integrity of the overall solution was paramount, we have chosen not to implement that architecture, knowingly sacrificing support for CBT on generic SMB shares.

Unfortunately, with "legal" approaches available to ISVs today, there is simply no reliable way to track changes when it comes to generic SMB shares. Reliable tracking requires that we put the filter driver on the actual storage box, which most NAS don't support (except when NAS is backed by Windows Server, scenario in which we do support CBT today).

Now, the hypervisor itself would, in fact, be able to do the change tracking reliably, so I hope one day we will see this capability added to Hyper-V. Until than, there is little we can do except implementing storage-specific integrations, which in turn is not so good idea from business perspective for us (at least when it comes to newcomers with small market share).

Thanks!
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:51 pm 1 person likes this post

Hi Gostev,

Thx for your response.
I received information that Nutanix has enough 'information' to deliver towards Veeam in order to get it working.
Problem is, I dont know which person I need to let talk to which person in order to make it happen.
My guess is partially 'politics' and the partnerships Veeam chooses.

I continue to work on all channels in my reach, cause reading out x tb's every night is just impossible.

Regards,
Bjorn
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Guess nobody uses Hyper-V and non-windows SMB 3.0.
Makes me start to think i'd better move to VmWare ...
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby Primetrack » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:45 pm 1 person likes this post

Some update on this?
Unfortunately we get this warning on our Nutanix SMBv3 share as well!
Kind a sad that there is no coorporation!
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby Vitaliy S. » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:48 pm 1 person likes this post

Anton's response above is still up-to-date, so no changes in terms of vendor's specific CBT support.
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:53 pm 1 person likes this post

I hope they did told you soo when you bought the box.
Cause you'll need to approach your backup in a scaled out thinking way...

Nutanix and Veeam wrote a best practices, but i'm not 100% agreeing with it :-).

I allow my backup to handle multiple vm's per repository but then limit the number of vm's / host that can be handled.

This way i'm sure it's taking a backup of vm's that are spreaded over hosts (read storage with Nutanix) and get some good speeds.

Are you running Hyper-V on the Nutanix or VmWare ?
I run Hyper-v, but advice VmWare.

drop me an email : bjorn.lagace@terbeke.com with your config on both nutanix/veeam/repository environment and what you wish to achieve.
I have almost a year experience now with debugging and optimising this :-)
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:44 pm 1 person likes this post

I'm searching for information about Windows Server 2015 (Server 10).
I hearded rumours that Microsoft would embed its own change block tracking (like VmWare).

This could provide a solution for non-windows SMB 3.0 shares.

Has Veeam been testing already with the technical preview?

Regards,
Bjorn
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby Vitaliy S. » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:21 pm 1 person likes this post

Hi Bjorn,

Cannot comment on the rumors, but as a TAP partner, yes, we have early access to the bits of Microsoft Windows Server.

Thanks!
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:02 am 1 person likes this post

We are also under NDA, so cannot really talk about any futures until Microsoft announces them officially.
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:48 am 1 person likes this post

No problem guys, I totally understand and respect that.

Afterall we need to have something in live to look forward to :-)
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:09 pm 1 person likes this post

For those interested, i'm referring to this information :

http://www.aidanfinn.com/?p=17505
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby b.lagace » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:44 am 1 person likes this post

From Microsoft :

One of our main goals going into this feature was to eliminate the need for backup vendors like Veeam to implement change block tracking filter drivers. As such we are working closely with a number of the backup vendors (including Veeam) to adopt our new model and thus not require a filter driver or any code to be installed on a file server.

I would encourage you to share your scenario with your backup vendor of choice (aka Veeam) as well – that will help make sure they prioritize these scenarios in order to support customers like yourself.


In short Microsoft will be ready for it in their next Windows Version.
Question is : Will Veeam adapt to the new method or continue to use their own developped filter driver ?
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Re: Feature request : CBT support for non-windows SMB 3.0 sh

Veeam Logoby Vitaliy S. » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:33 pm 1 person likes this post

Yes, Veeam has always been known as a vendor that fully supported all new features of Hyper-V server.
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