How to backup Hyper-V similar to old SBS?

[StefanoFereri]

Hi forum,

I'm planning a small Hyper-V system as successor of an old SBS 2003. With two VM: one for DC/file/print etc., the other as Exchange Server, about 100GB each. I would like to backup this system as similar to the old system with it's LTO-2-SCSI-drive as possible. Up to now we use 20 tapes: 4 tapes for incremental backups from Monday through Thursday, 4 tapes for weekly and 12 tapes for monthly full backups. The goal is to be able to restore single files or mails up to the age of one year, as it was with the old system. Could this be achieved with B&R?

As far as I see RDX cartridges are the best way to achieve this. Beside the main RAID-1-array for user data there will be an additional locally connected RAID-1-array with cheap and big SATA disks for backup purposes.

Could someone outline briefly how a backup scheme could look like, how many cartridges or capacity will be needed? Read a lot about that, but somehow don't get it sorted.

Thanks a lot for your ideas.

Regards,
Stefano

[PTide]

Hi,

Could this be achieved with B&R?

As far as I understood you, the answer is "yes".

May I ask you to clarify something?

You have a bunch of big SATAs, RAIDed for your backups, locally attached to what? To Hyper-V host?

You have LTO-2-SCSI drive and want to use it for long-term backups, correct?

What about RDX? How do you plan to use them?

Thank you.

[StefanoFereri]

Thanks, PTide, for your input!

> You have a bunch of big SATAs, RAIDed for your backups, locally attached to
> what? To Hyper-V host?

I plan to put some cheap and big disks into the server, so that they could be used for storing the backups, keep them online for a while and transfer them to a removable system, that allows their storage abroad. So far they are attached to the host, where backup software is supposed to run, indeed.

> You have LTO-2-SCSI drive and want to use it for long-term backups, correct?

No, the LTO-2-SCSI drive was used in the old system. But as I understood B&R cannot write to LTO-2 tapes. What I meant was, that I would like to have a backup system (or "scheme") as similar to the old one (with its 20 tapes) as possible. May be this could be achieved with RDX cartridges.

> What about RDX? How do you plan to use them?

That's one of these things, I'm not sure about. To me they seems to be able to replace tapes, as they are simple to handle and removable medias. Is it possible to have backups with RDX as it was in the old SBS- and tape-drive-times, i.e. incremental from Monday to Thursday, full weekly and monthly, store these backups on local disks and duplicate them nightly onto RDX drives? If yes, does B&R provide an automated rotation system, as it was done with the old backup software ("Put in tape labeled 'Tuesday'" or "Put in tape labeled 'January'")?

Thanks again and regards,
Stefano

[PTide]

Hi,

I plan to put some cheap and big disks into the server, so that they could be used for storing the backups, keep them online for a while and transfer them to a removable system<...> So far they are attached to the host, where backup software is supposed to run, indeed

It seems that you are going to place B&R right atop of your Hyper-V, aren't you?
Firstly, you should be aware of is licensing policy. Please see this thread for details.
Secondly, I don't think that it's a good decision to place both backup server and repository on the same host. If the host dies it won't be much fun to restore your VMs, because if your hyper-v host goes offline your most recent backups go offline as well as your backup server does. I suggest you to have a small physical dedicated server as a repository, you can even use linux so you don't spend $ on another Windows license. Your Veeam B&R can be either virtual or physical - just make sure it is backing up its configuration daily so you can perform fast deployment if it dies for some reason.

and transfer them to a removable system

Sorry, I can't get it - do you want to transfer backups or disks?

If disks, then you might want to utilize a rotated drives option for your repository if you are really going to send drives offsite. However, I'd better use backup copy job to copy your backups to some other place. Backup Copy Job can be scheduled in a GFS style which, I think, is exactly what you need if you want to schedule your backups to be as Year-Months-Weeks-Days. It will also help you to reduce the amount of traffic between primary backup storage and secondary.

Is it possible to have backups with RDX as it was in the old SBS- and tape-drive-times, i.e. incremental from Monday to Thursday, full weekly and monthly, store these backups on local disks and duplicate them nightly onto RDX drives?

Sure you can - this feature is called "Backup to tape". RDX is supported, please check this thread.

does B&R provide an automated rotation system, as it was done with the old backup software ("Put in tape labeled 'Tuesday'"

If you are talking about restores, then yes - B&R will prompt you for a tape where the subject to restored is kept. In case you meant something else please clarify, I'm not sure that I'm getting it right.

Thank you.

[StefanoFereri]

It seems that you are going to place B&R right atop of your Hyper-V, aren't you?

Yes, it was my plan to install it on host, as it is recommended by many.

Firstly, you should be aware of is licensing policy.

I followed your link, but could not detect a problem I should be aware of. MS doesn't care where you setup your backup software and Veeam seems to license CPUs. Since I have only one CPU there should be no problem to backup host and two VMs with one license, right?

Secondly, I don't think that it's a good decision to place both backup server and repository on the same host.

That's a good point. It often is debated, for example, whether you should install your DC into a VM, for security reasons, or to have even a second DC for redundancy. But formerly with SBS we did not doubt the concept of having everything on one box. Are things worse now? If virtualization would put an additional risk onto your server(s), compared to the SBS times, than no one would do it, right?

You should have an image of your host, I guess. And the backup repository of course must be duplicated elsewhere, in my plans it is the RDX drives. It is only put on local store for being able of fast restores of recent data without inserting a cartridge. So in the worst case, when everything is gone, I would have to reload the image of the host and then use R&B to restore guests from RDX. Another computer only for backup purposes is a problem for customers, who reside in small offices and have no separate room for IT equipment. Even the external USB-3.0-RDX-drive I suggested was a problem for them. And for the SBS 2003 we had to pay 2.500 Euros for hardware and software, now with Hyper-V 2012 it is 10.000 Euros for hardware and licenses (we have no bandwidth for cloud). If I tell them, that they nevertheless need another box for backing up this expensive server...

I'm planning to install host on USB flash drive, which from time to time has to be duplicated. So if one stick fails I plug in the other stick and host and B&R are up and running...

Sorry, I can't get it - do you want to transfer backups or disks?

I want to duplicate the local backups, that were made by R&B, to some removable media, like RDX, to keep the data abroad.

B&R will prompt you for a tape where the subject to restored is kept...

So B&R is capable

• - to make incremental or differential (on weekdays) and full backups (on Fridays and last day of month),
  - to run another job after backup and copy these incremental and full backups onto RDX
  - to track which backup resides on which RDX cartridge
  - and, in case of having to restore a single e-mail from 6 month ago, offers me all the backed up Exchange mail stores, let me choose the right one and then says "Ok, for this one you need RDX cartridge labeled 'January'"?

Thanks a lot, PTide, for having the patience of reading all that. But backup on virtualized systems was a black hole to me up to now, and your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Stefano

[PTide]

MS doesn't care where you setup your backup software

Sometimes they do. If you are using something like Microsoft Windows Server 2012R2 STANDARD then the following applies:

When a customer is running all allowed virtual instances,
the physical instance may only be used to manage and
service the virtual instances. For information about licensing
in virtual environments, see the Microsoft Volume Licensing
Brief: Licensing Microsoft Server Products in Virtual
Environments white paper.

The question here is if MS considers B&R to be a part which is "used to manage and service the virtual instances". I'd double check that.

Are things worse now? If virtualization would put an additional risk onto your server(s), compared to the SBS times, than no one would do it, right?

where everything is gone, I would have to reload the image of the host and then use Veeam to restore guests from RDX

Then your RDX-box should be stored somewhere outside of the office and your daily incrementals should be copied there every day, otherwise a Thursday evening fire will destroy last four business days backups + production... Here we come to a dedicated backup box again. In addition you will have to offload your tape-archived backups from your tape(s) to another storage first, and only then you can use those backup to restore VMs. I stronlgy recommend you to deploy a cheap debian-based machine as an offsite secondary repository.

I'm planning to install host on USB flash drive

Please see the "fire case"

I want to duplicate the local backups, that were made by R&B, to some removable media, like RDX, to keep the data abroad.

As I already mentioned - the better option would be to have secondary remote repo (cheap hardware, linux for free) + tape server (any cheap windows machine). You can even fit both into the same windows 7 machine and keep them offsite. The schema will work in the following way: Your primary backup job creates a restore point on hyper-v host, your backup copy job immediately copies it to the remote windows 7 machine and the same windows 7 machine places those backups on a tape. Extra cost - one windows 7 license + one PC.

So B&R is capable<...>

Yes, all the list of capabilities is correct.

[PTide]

Also, something about USB - it's up to you, but personally I would not run Hyper-V host from a USB stick.

[StefanoFereri]

The question here is if MS considers [...] I'd double check that.

Seems to be not quite clear, indeed. Didn't expect that.

Then your RDX-box should be stored somewhere outside of the office...

It's not the "box" that I want to store elsewhere, it's the cartridges, which are supposed of beeing replaced every morning, like it was with the LTO tapes. These tapes were stored in a fireproof safe, as the RDX cartridges are supposed to.

I'm not sure whether I get your concept right. At the end your concept creates one additional step: Copy the backup files to another computer before you copy them to tape (or RDX cartridge). But this computer still is in the office, may be in another room, but it does not solve the "offsite-problem". This you fulfill with your final step, because the tapes can be easily taken home (or stored into a safe). I'm not quite sure where the real profit is with this extra step.

But where is the backup software running in your solution? Is it running on Windows 7 on that extra computer, does that work? Then the advantage would be, in case of a total hardware failure, that, after acquiring new hardware, you could restore immediately from this extra computer. Well, that could make sense.

Also, something about USB...

Which problems do you see with USB stick? What do you prefer? My alternative would be to put host and VHDX files together on one array. I would not spend extra RAID1 only for host, because host does not cause much I/O. But I like the simplicity of having a stick, that you can plug in to your PC and duplicate it onto another stick.

Thanks for your efforts!

Regards,
Stefano

[PTide]

Hi,

1) Since RDX drives will be used as a secondary backup destination, you can keep the deployement as is. The only concern here is if your safe really disasteproof.

2) Just to be sure, you'd better check licensing questions with MS representative.

3) Hyper-V server is not optimized to be executed from USB stick. The latter has limited number of r/w cycles which might be the case with the load put by HV server.

Thank you.

[PTide]

BTW, does your hardware/software environment allow to emulate a tape library with your RDX?

[StefanoFereri]

BTW, does your hardware/software environment allow to emulate a tape library with your RDX?

Not sure, what you mean. Isn't it (only) B&R that has to deal with it? I plan to use RDX Quickstor via USB. I take it that B&R will be able to handle it as tape drive. But my main goal is that my backup software gives me the option to save the incrementals and fulls onto any removable storage LIKE tapes and gives me the option to browse through library and select data to restore. If something similar can be done without tape emulation, it's perfect.

One last thing: You didn't refer to my question, were you have B&R running in your solution - is this question too stupid? I don't like the idea of having anything run on the host, but as far as I see this is inevitable, at least for backup solutions. If I your solution is a method to avoid backup software on host and to backup host and guests from another computer I would definitely prefer it.

Thanks again for your patience and for sharing your knowledge,
Stefano

[veremin]

Not sure, what you mean. Isn't it (only) B&R that has to deal with it? I plan to use RDX Quickstor via USB. I take it that B&R will be able to handle it as tape drive.

The said device can be added as tape library to a backup console. Then, you can create tape jobs in accordance with your needs.

I don't like the idea of having anything run on the host, but as far as I see this is inevitable, at least for backup solutions. If I your solution is a method to avoid backup software on host and to backup host and guests from another computer I would definitely prefer it.

Since backup server is playing manager role instructing/communicating with backup architecture components, such as proxy, repositories, it can be installed on whatever server you want to: be it physical or virtual one.

If you stick to virtual server, be aware to backup server configuration. The good idea might be to create a small share disk on any physical machine you happen to have and use it as target for configuration backup.

Thanks.

[StefanoFereri]

The said device can be added as tape library...

Ok, thanks.

...it can be installed on whatever server you want to: be it physical or virtual...

Ok, than Pavel's suggestion with a simple extra windows machine wich holds the backup repository gets more and more friendly to me.

The good idea might be to create a small share disk on any physical machine you happen to have and use it as target for configuration backup.

What exactly do you mean with "share disk"?

Vladimir, Pavel, I know I allready had a lot of questions, your efforts were excellent and you're no teachers for backup virtualized systems. But maybe this topic is a sort of black box for other readers as well. So what might be of interest is this concept of running B&R on a Windows machine with virtual Linux and shared disk and so on. Would you mind to elaborate this a bit more?

Would be great, and many thanks so far,
Stefano

[veremin]

What exactly do you mean with "share disk"?

Just a Windows-based physical server with a shared folder on it used for nothing but for hosting configuration backup files. ThAt share can be added as a mapped drive in backup server and be specified as target for configuration backups.

Thanks.