Symantec Alleged Patent Infringement - Impact on Veeam?

[ashleyw]

Hi,

Can anything be said around the on-going Symantec verses Veeam alleged patent infringement and how this may or may not impact current and future Veeam customers?

From what I have read, the case against Veeam is largely unfounded.

What is Veeam's public take on this?

cheers
Ashley

[Gostev]

From what I have read, the case against Veeam is largely unfounded.

Yep, we also do not believe the case has merit, and of course we will defend ourselves. Our lawyers are looking into the claims carefully, and will issue a definitive statement when this analysis is completed. This may take a few weeks, and until then, I am not allowed to comment. Feel free to discuss this with other community members though. Thanks!

[ashleyw]

Thanks Anton.

Go Veeam Go!
Like most, we'll definitely be cheering for Veeam in court! Symantec haven't seen anything yet!

[Daveyd]

From a website: Symantec claims "Veeam's infringement is cause-in-fact of profit loss and price erosion suffered by Symantec". It wants Veeam prevented from selling any products that break Symantec's patents plus damages. That would put Veeam out of business.

I sure the hell hope not. Go get em Veeam. Reason 4,298 why I hate Symantec

[monkeymagic79]

I read an article and the infringements I am no lawyer but seemed flakey, they are going at Acronis also. It just shows how worried they are by Veeam because it is far superior at virtual machine backup and restores.

[vmbackupuser]

Veeam users, prospects unfazed by Symantec litigation
http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.c ... itigation/


Symantec accuses Veeam as well as another competitor, Acronis, Inc. of doing “irreparable harm” in its lawsuits, and the security and storage software company seeks monetary damages. It is also attempting to stop Veeam and Acronis from using certain technology in their products.

Symantec claims that Veeam infringed on patents for “Disaster Recovery and Backup Using Virtual Machines,” “Computer Restoration Systems and Methods,” “Method and System of Providing Replication,” and “Selective File and Folder Snapshot Creation.”

Users considering a move to Veeam are undeterred. “Isn’t that what every backup vendor does?” said Femi Adegoke, IT Director at the West Gastroenterology Medical Group in Los Angeles, Calif., of the alleged areas of infringement. “[The lawsuit] doesn’t bother me — Symantec’s product has a lot of moving parts and legacy stuff involved. I prefer to go with some of the newer guard [in Veeam].”

Some in the market see the suit as ‘patent trolling’ on Symantec’s part, brought on by competitive products’ popularity, but it’s more likely a prelude to some form of partnership or even acquisition, said Greg Schulz, founder and analyst with the StorageIO Group.

“Maybe the outcome down the road is some cross-licensing or a partnership between Veeam and Symantec,” he said. “We’ve seen a long list of things like this eventually get settled out of court.”

[J1mbo]

Veeam's infringement is cause-in-fact of profit loss and price erosion suffered by Symantec

dare I suggest..., because it's good software at an affordable price that works in a way that people can understand. Essentially, the mirror-opposite of BackupExec.

[coveytx]

Sheesh, Veeam even recommends Sym BE for the tape offload; not very well thought out suit, unless some sort acquisition or other motive is at work here.

[J1mbo]

Argh, don't. It would be like EMC & VMware over again. "Veeam, now with vGigabyte Entitlement - backup as much as 64GB per license..."

[coveytx]

Yah, and kudos to Gostev and all the other guys at Veeam, I much prefer Veeam support.

[ashleyw]

I agree with the comments on Veeam support - it's really excellent. What I find impressive is that most technical information is free and open - this forum is a good indicator of that. Symantec (and also the likes of VMware!) would do well to look at the way Veeam has built up a great community in such a short time.

Just stumbled across this link - perhaps Veeam customers should let Symantec know how they feel on the Symantec blogs!

http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/s ... t-lawsuits

[J1mbo]

Thanks for posting that. Have a read of the actual filing - here.

Symantec says US Patent No. 7,093,086 is directed to method that permit the back-up of a vritual machine to a destination separate from the storage device used by the virtual machine.

I say - if that is valid, cloning a virtual machine or indeed any scripting of copying of files - including SCP - or indeed the use of the datastore browser to copy files would become an activity that would require a license fee to be paid to Symantec. Indeed, using Windows Explorer to copy VMware Workstation files from one folder to another would be caught.

It simply can't be possible to claim rights over basic file management.

Symantec says US Patent No. 6,931,558 is...directed at disaster recovery. It provides for the back-up and restoration of a client machine...on a network, when the client fails... It allows for the restoration of the entire machine...in a single integrated step.

I say - this is basically the same argument as against patent No 7,093,086. Symantec is claiming licensing rights over any script that will copy files, which happen to be virtual machine files, from one location to another.

Symantec says US Patent No. 7,191,229 provides a system and method for periodic replication...maintaining volumes with multiple point-in-time snapshots of the client and tracking changes across the volume.

I say - this claim is directed at the wrong company. Surely if there is a claim it would be against VMware change-block-tracking which makes all of this possible. Veeam or any other VMware backup solution is simply requesting a list of changed blocks via the published API. I would suggest, Symantec knows that VMware has bigger and scarier lawyers than Veeam, so is going after "the little guy" with this one.

I love the intro too, waffling on about it's wonderful history and superb products. Tell me this, if they're that superb why then has their market collapsed!? Answer: because BackupExec was always way too expensive, impossible to understand, was slow and never worked reliably anyway. Basically expensive rubbish that we only bought because there was no other option.

Veeam - I'll understand if you need to take this post down! But I'll publish it on my blog anyway

[Gostev]

The only posts we take down on this forum are posts about technical issues without support case ID included

[ashleyw]

Hey Anton,

I just wondered what the current situation is with regards to Veeam verses Symantec? The recent law changes you mentioned in another thread about not being able to directly compare products by name seems ludicrous.
I saw this link pop up on a quick Google search for the court document filed on the 31/05/2012;
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/dis ... 251325/51/

Incidentally our Veeam v6.1 environment is running so well that it effectively runs itself - we don't worry about backups any more!
I'd hate to have to take a step back in time and have to use Symantec products again!

cheers
Ashley

[Gostev]

Everything is fine, we are going through the standard litigation process and defending ourselves against this attack. The whole process will probably take at least 2 years from start to finish, so don't expect any updates short term.

Motion to dismiss and similar are part of the standard process, they do not change much even when granted. We did not like that they did not provide any details on how we "infringe", this is why we filed the motion. Even if the motion was granted, they would simply re-file the case with more details. But, at this time we've got the details anyway.

The good news is, the case has no merit. They are just trying to pull completely unrelated 10 year old technologies onto what we are doing. It is one big nonsense, and I believe the only purpose of this is to give us hard time, get direct access to our source code and financial information, and so on. Unfortunately, US laws are not ideal and let gorilla vendors troll smaller competitors like that. I am glad they did not do this 2 years ago, when we simply did not have money to defend ourselves - but now, we are fully armed and ready to go all the way!

By the way, I just noticed that you are from New Zealand (at least, according to your email address). Do you realize that all patents in question are good in US only? Meaning, you personally can stop worrying about all of this right away, keep enjoying 6.1, and never read this topic again

[johnlong]

I read an article and the infringements I am no lawyer but seemed flakey, they are going at Acronis also. It just shows how worried they are by Veeam because it is far superior at virtual machine backup and restores.

This is quite ironic to me because I left Symantec for Veeam and Acronis for network backup of our company laptops.

[Gostev]

So, after 3 years this one is done deal. Case closed > Veeam Invalidates Symantec’s Patents at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office

[sbbots]

The corporate legal bullying by American companies is something many of us working Americans are embarrassed by, whether it is Symantec or Apple or [insert any big pharma company]. I am glad you triumphed and Veeam can continue to provide real innovation; Both in your products and your incredible, direct communication with your customers.

[TomBlue]

The corporate legal bullying by American companies is something many of us working Americans are embarrassed by, whether it is Symantec or Apple or [insert any big pharma company]. I am glad you triumphed and Veeam can continue to provide real innovation; Both in your products and your incredible, direct communication with your customers.

There's nothing to add. Congratulations to Veeam!