Feature Request: Proxmox

[sf4692]

well that sounds promising and yeah sure you can do PBS with Veeam for Agent Based Backups, that's a workaround now! thank you

[johannesk]

+1 for proxmox support.

[OmiFreak]

+1 we think about Proxmox as well

[andreas.zeiler]

+1 already moved one vSphere cluster to Proxmox

[Mario Rossi]

Good morning,
in the company we had a cluster of 5 DELL poweredge hosts, a Powervault, ESXi and Veeam node with around 150 VMs.
Then we moved on to Nutanix nodes (5), again ESXi and Datadomain.
We're fine with the contract for four years, then we'll see. As technicians we would like to return to Veeam but other people who also look at the economic side decide.

In the next three years anything can happen, we could use the Nutanix hypervisor or switch to Proxmox, or stay with ESXi if VMware gets its act together and retraces its steps.
We will definitely return to Veeam.

If it supported Proxmox we would have a better chance.
Our backups are on a server with physical storage with tape replication and in an immutable cloud.
Backup of VMs, physical hosts (clients with agents) and MSsql.



Instead at home, I'm preparing a proxmox host with different vm (Firewall (freebsd), nas (freebsd), container (linux), vm (windows).
Also in this case I am looking for an integrated solution to back up the VMs, the data in the NAS, and a Windows client with the agent.
All with the GFS scheme locally on the NAS, on an external disk and in the cloud with deduplication, immutability and encryption features.


p.s. It would be nice if Veeam evolved into a standalone system with a web interface. This way it would not require installation on Windows and could be managed more easily.

[PTide]

Hi,

Thank you for the input. Speaking of Proxmox - what's your production storage type? Proxmox supports around half a dozen of different storages, which one do you prefer?

Cheers

[mrRubbelbubel]

+1 for veeam b&r proxmox support

[Mario Rossi]

Hi,

Thank you for the input. Speaking of Proxmox - what's your production storage type? Proxmox supports around half a dozen of different storages, which one do you prefer?

Cheers

1x NVME SSD 1TB (Samsung 990 Pro) - Installation and VM/CT - ZFS
2x HD SATA WD Gold 6TB - NAS storage (SATA passthrough for TrueNAS) ZFS RAID1

[rrmike]

+1 for proxmox support as well.

[gustavouehara]

+1 for proxmox support

[Gostev]

We're researching and doing some prototyping around Proxmox to see what's possible there as far as backup goes.

It would be helpful if we replace future +1s in this thread with information on:

1. Proxmox infrastructure size.

2. Virtual disk/storage type you're using (QCOW2 vs. RAW vs. ZVOL vs. other).

3. Any other infrastructure info that might be directly relevant to Proxmox VM interaction/backup/restore. Not knowing Proxmox yet I simply don't know what to ask, but for example with Hyper-V you can use standalone hosts, failover clusters or SCVMM - looking for this kind of infrastructure info/peculiarities.

Folks, please do not post just to say +1. Use Like if you only want to show your support for the original request, unlike posting this doesn't trigger email notifications to all thread subscribers. And if you do post, please do include some information about your Proxmox deployment. Thanks in advance.

[balseb]

Hi,

we are going to migrate 2 vmware cluster and 1 Hyper-V cluster to proxmox this year due to the vmware by broadcom licensing changes.
1 hyper-v cluster (3 nodes, 30TB FC SAN)
1 vmware cluster (6 nodes, 25 TB FC SAN)
1 vmware cluster (14 nodes, 400 TB vSAN)
We are running ~ 400 VMs on these clusters.
The 14 node cluster will be replaced with proxmox-ve with ceph-rbd, the others will stay on Fujitsu Eternus AF SAN Storage.
I really would appreciate to stay with the comfort of any kind of integration into Veeam B&R. (in addition of agent based backup)

Cheers

[NojuHD]

Hi,

We are currently making some changes in our Server Infrastructure, and we are considering switching from Hyper-V to Proxmox.

It would be a 10+ Node Cluster with LVM on a shared iSCSI / SCSI proposed storage. There is also a little chance that we will switch to an HCI approach with CEPH. 
The only thing holding us back is the missing native Veeam integration, because we would like to keep our current Veeam Appliance and do preferable agentless Backups with Application-Aware Backups (MS SQL, MySQL, MS AD, MS Exchange).

2. Virtual disk/storage type you're using (QCOW2 vs. RAW vs. ZVOL vs. other).

I think the most common setups for shared storage will be CEPH or LVM on iSCSI/SCSI. As ceph is the official recommended shared storage solution and supports all given features from Proxmox, unlike LVM over iSCSI which, for example, does not support snapshots. 

Furthermore, I have been running Proxmox for many years in my home lab, and for the past 1,5 years I have been using a three-node ceph-backed cluster.

And I'm very happy with how Proxmox works.


https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Storage

[MelanieTanaka]

Just dropping in to leave this news here, expect even more people to move over to proxmox once this feature is out of the testing phase and knowledge of it makes the rounds:

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... wares-esxi

[dw432948jkk]

A small interjection with another question: is it even clear that Proxmox is interested in a Veeam connection? The Proxmox backup server is still relatively young, but it runs in several clusters without any problems. Given this background, why should Proxmox be interested in a “third-party connection” for backups?

[Gostev]

Just like any other hypervisor: to attract larger customers to their platform. These typically require proven enterprise backup with performance/features/integrations which realistically Proxmox won't have in the foreseeable future.

Why was VMware always so interested in third party backup despite as many as three separate attempts at their own backup tools?

Same with Microsoft, which has always had DPM (way more advanced than current PBS btw) and other own backup tools.

Also keep in mind that unlike Proxmox, these two companies had more or less infinite resources.

[skinner_s]

vSphere isn't just a product; it's an eco system created to include experts who know how to do one thing really well. When VMWare tried to make something outside of the hypervisor world, it didn't get much attention. Third party solutions, like Veeam, are the ones that really make sure everything runs smoothly in a dependable hosting environment.

[Seve CH]

Hello,

We operate a multi-continental vSphere infrastructure, with 40-50 hosts for our own needs (we aren't a MSP), 800 VMs or so. A big part of them, protected with Veeam. No hyperconverged infrastructure.

As we expect our vSphere costs to be something north of 600% higher on renewal, we plan to rearchitect our infrastructure this year to minimize impact. We still have time, because in many cases we have perpetual licensing with support until 2026. Proxmox is going "viral", so we will have a look at it.

Something that makes us worries about Proxmox:
* Licensing: AGPLv3. That license sucks for enterprises and complicates everything now and in the future. The "paid version" is the same license, still AGPLv3.
* Impossibility to resell services using the infrastructure if you use the paid repositories/support. If you are an MSP, read the fine print. We currently don't resell services hosted on vSphere, we do internal IT only, but this may change.
* I don't know if Proxmox makes visible the VM generation ID to Active Directory (this may disqualify Proxmox as host for Domain Controllers).
* Lack of internal capability. If we need external support, I feel that external support will be difficult to find too.

Back to the thread:
Veeam Backup & Recovery is a must for the new solution. We would like:
* Network Traffic rules to limit bandwidth usage between sites during office hours.
* Multistream support to mitigate the impact of high latency WAN links (in some cases, 60-200ms).
* Local deduplication/compression + Encryption before sending data to the remote repository (Remote backup repository or remote backup copy job repository).
* Backup repos with deduplication (REFS/XFS block cloning) with at-rest encryption (encrypted backup files).
* In some extreme cases, the initial full backup may take up to 15 days to upload to the repo. This is an open snapshot during 15 days. Based on what I've read on this thread, this disqualifies Proxmox backup solution (Copy-on-write) an can be a selling point for Veeam.
* Instant recovery to a different system, maybe on a different region. We run a qualified infrastructure and in some cases, validated applications. Some testing cases need 1-1 cloning in a virtual lab or DR to a different site.
* Application aware, but not "per se" (we know we could use Veeam Agent), but to do in-place item restores by Service Desk using Enterprise Manager (Files). We are interested on Windows (must have), SQL-Server (Win), AD.
* (Very) Nice to have: No direct visibility between VMs (and ideally between Hosts too) and Veeam Repository. The Veeam repos talk with the storage or proxies, but not with the workload. This is a reason to dislike Veeam Agent (direct write to repo).

Best regards
Seve

[Gostev]

Hoi, Seve. This is extremely useful info, thank you! I believe most of the feature you mentioned should come "automatically" because they are part of the core platform. Seeing only a few in your list that are still tightly coupled to VMware and need a "surgery" first to make them universally applicable to all hypervisors. Not a rocket science, just requires time.

I hear you about backup performance with PBS. Based on current prototypes testing I'm bullish that Veeam will be able to provide 10x faster backups.

Keep the feedback coming!

[m.novelli]

As we expect our vSphere costs to be something north of 600% higher on renewal, we plan to rearchitect our infrastructure this year to minimize impact. We still have time, because in many cases we have perpetual licensing with support until 2026. Proxmox is going "viral", so we will have a look at it.⁸

600%


What makes me fool about new VMware licensing is the minimum of 16 cores per socket, despite the real number of cores… The chain of Teams / Directors / VP at Broadcom that decided this stupid licensing really think that Customers are stupid cow to milk

Not mentioning the dismission of Essential licenses for single server Customers, 3x expense in 3 years, 5x in 5 years. They want to exit from SMB market and focus on Enterprise, but Enterprise should kick them out as well

Marco

[Gostev]

@m.novelli apparently the 16 cores rule was already there before the acquisition, back when VMware introduced subscription. So the "Broadcom chain" is not to blame... not for this one

[m.novelli]

So now I understand why I've never sold a VMware Subscription License
They where a thief also before Broadcom

Marco

[SkyDiver79]

Something that makes us worries about Proxmox:
* Licensing: AGPLv3. That license sucks for enterprises and complicates everything now and in the future. The "paid version" is the same license, still AGPLv3.
* Impossibility to resell services using the infrastructure if you use the paid repositories/support. If you are an MSP, read the fine print. We currently don't resell services hosted on vSphere, we do internal IT only, but this may change.
* I don't know if Proxmox makes visible the VM generation ID to Active Directory (this may disqualify Proxmox as host for Domain Controllers).
* Lack of internal capability. If we need external support, I feel that external support will be difficult to find too.

* I have no idea about license issues, so I can't contribute anything.
* Virtualizing domain controllers has always been possible and I also have virtual domain controllers on Proxmox for all my customers.
This would not be a Proxmox limitation, but all KVM-based hypervisors such as Nutanix or RHEV would have problems.
* You also get support from many service providers, they are just different companies than before.

*** In some extreme cases, it can take up to 15 days for the first full backup to be uploaded to the repository. This is an open snapshot for 15 days. Based on what I've read in this thread, this disqualifies the Proxmox backup solution (copy-on-write) and may be a selling point for Veeam.
* This is not a real problem under Proxmox, but a backup infrastructure design issue. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of half-knowledge on the Internet.

*** Immediate recovery on another system, perhaps in another region. We operate a qualified infrastructure and in some cases also validated applications. Some test cases require 1-1 cloning
* This is also not a problem with Proxmox itself.

[jandrewartha]

QEMU supports generation ID https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/specs/vmgenid.html and Proxmox support was added in 2018 https://git.proxmox.com/?p=qemu-server. ... 475d0eceb4

[SkyDiver79]

I hear you about backup performance with PBS. Based on current prototypes testing I'm bullish that Veeam will be able to provide 10x faster backups.

I'm interested to see how you plan to reduce the PBS backup times so drastically.
The PBS is always extremely fast at my customers, only the guest interaction is missing. The familiar convenience of backup and especially restore is the main reason why so many people are hoping for Proxmox support.

[Seve CH]

* Virtualizing domain controllers has always been possible and I also have virtual domain controllers on Proxmox for all my customers.
This would not be a Proxmox limitation, but all KVM-based hypervisors such as Nutanix or RHEV would have problems.

Nutanix added support last august:
https://portal.nutanix.com/page/documen ... 000bmrJCAQ

One thing is that "it seems to work", a different thing is that it really works and it is supported by Microsoft if there is a problem.

Based on the comment from jandrewartha, it seems that Proxmox added support too. Good. Your customers were lucky there

* You also get support from many service providers, they are just different companies than before.

Well... I know nobody with Proxmox experience. We certainly doesn't have it inhouse. I am not sure if it is know outside of the DACH region (ie. Japan?).
As this went "viral", they will be overloaded by customers. I know how service providers work: They take somebody, give a manual to read and sell the person as "expert" to the customer.

*** In some extreme cases, it can take up to 15 days for the first full backup to be uploaded to the repository. This is an open snapshot for 15 days. Based on what I've read in this thread, this disqualifies the Proxmox backup solution (copy-on-write) and may be a selling point for Veeam.
* This is not a real problem under Proxmox, but a backup infrastructure design issue. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of half-knowledge on the Internet.

Do I understand that you are suggesting that we designed that wrong? And that without knowing the constraints, requirements and infrastructure involved. How daring.

*** Immediate recovery on another system, perhaps in another region. We operate a qualified infrastructure and in some cases also validated applications. Some test cases require 1-1 cloning
* This is also not a problem with Proxmox itself.

As I said, we will evaluate Proxmox when the time arrives.

[SkyDiver79]

There are many companies in Europe and North & South America. In Asia the distribution is not so strong. In Japan, I only know Axis (https://www.axisjp.co.jp) but I don't know how good this company is. I also manage sites in China, but they all belong to German companies.

*** Do I understand you correctly to be saying that we have designed this wrong? And that without knowing the constraints, requirements and infrastructure. How daring.
*I don't know the requirements and design, but there is a solution for almost every problem. Sometimes you have to be creative, but so far I have never received a request from a customer that could not be fulfilled.
Open source in particular offers more solutions in some areas than a closed source solution.
But I also recommend that some customers stay with vSphere because of very specific requirements.

[Gostev]

So Veeam has received our own VMware renewal quotes which are... impressive, so I guess we're officially in the same boat with ya'll now
And judging by the fact that our IT folks have suddenly come to us with many questions about Proxmox, it is also being evaluated.

[SkyDiver79]

You and your folks are very warm Welcome in Proxmox Forum. https://forum.proxmox.com

[SkyDiver79]

* In some extreme cases, the initial full backup may take up to 15 days to upload to the repo. This is an open snapshot during 15 days. Based on what I've read on this thread, this disqualifies Proxmox backup solution (Copy-on-write) an can be a selling point for Veeam.

Hi Seve,

you can write me why the PBS with CoW is disqualified.
I can then show you a way that I would go.

P.S. You can also use seeding, but you have to understand how the PBS works