Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:19 am

Vitaliy S. wrote:Arend, as per Anton's digest, in our minor update scheduled to this week we are adding a capability to launch backup job through a command line interface, so you should have a solution for use case now:


While that will certainly help to put our problem to rest, it is more a work around than a real solution.
I don't mean to be negative, really, I just find VEB a beautiful perfect program and the only little imperfection is that absence of a proper scheduler.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:39 am

It has a perfect scheduler for backing up desktops and laptops, which is what VEB is designed to do. It may lack other functionality, such as smarter VPN handling that you bring up above, but it doesn't mean this needs to be solved by complicating the scheduler.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:53 pm

I suppose you have quite a low standard for the definition of perfect.
Again, I'm not asking for the world or even something complicated.
I'm just asking for something pretty much every other backup software has available by default, a normal scheduler.
And not even that, I'm only asking for "weekdays" instead of daily.

But after the amount of resistance you guys put up against a simple suggestion I'm fed up with this whole ordeal.
While we are more then happy with our VBR solutions which are licensed so I guess those suggestions are taken seriously,we aren't so happy with VEB, but I guess you get what you pay for, including the attitude that goes along with it.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:38 pm

apronk wrote:I suppose you have quite a low standard for the definition of perfect.
I'm just asking for ... a normal scheduler.

I admit having a different definition of "normal" when it comes to an endpoint backup product ;) the current scheduler is designed according to my vision, and feedback after more than 200,000 downloads proves the vision to be correct.

I don't add functionality just because "pretty much every other backup software has it available", because I don't want to create yet another solution with complex, cumbersome UI to join that army. And less reliable too, because each additional option spreads QC resources thinner and thinner.

That said, as per my previous post above, I do agree with your issue and use case. And we are intended to solve this in a robust way. It is just that I disagree with your proposed solution. I consider it to be merely a workaround that will fail big times the moment some of your developers need to work on a weekend in the office finishing some important project, and losing the laptop (that has not been backed up due to excluded weekend days) afterwards.

But talking about attitude, I would certainly appreciate if you avoid personal attacks on these forums in future, and don't get down to personalities in an argument. You are welcome do disagree with my definition of perfect, but there is really no need to characterize it as "low".
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:14 pm

I don't get down to personalities, really.
I merely tried to point out that when you define a scheduler that only has one option as "perfect" then you're definition of perfect needs re-evaluation. And just to re emphasise I do not mean that as a personal attack, just an observation.

To argue your point on the off chance that my developers need to work in the weekend, and that is just about as likely as them winning the lottery, the chance that their laptop gets stolen or lost after that specific weekend (or any weekend for that matter) is a risk we're willing to take.
Besides if the scheduler is allowing it, isn't the responsibility of us as a company or the end user?
In any case it is not Veeam's responsibility.

And again, I am not asking for a "complex and cumbersome UI" I am just asking for just 1 single simple entry in the option of the scheduler.
Just a "Daily or Weekdays" selection.
How many times to I have to reiterate that to not have this twisted into some impossible request where it ends up as a "complex and cumbersome UI", or VPN related options, or Resouce intrusive or... Or... Or...?

And to once and for all close this arguement, I think you guys make great software.
You truly have a terrific corner in the market which you so richly deserve, however I would like to point out, if you read this case objectively as a few others that I've read, that the greater Veeam becomes and the more the userbase grows, the level of support declines.
Don't lose it, it's one of the pilars of this great community.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:30 pm

Sounds good. I promise you that while I am here, at least from product and R&D perspective, things will remain as they were 7 years ago, when I joined :D

And the best way you and other users to help us, is share your specific issues, scenarios - and explain what's not working well. Just like you did on the previous page. Do keep that kind of feedback coming! We will listen, and find the best possible solution to each problem, as we always did!

However, if you instead take the road of telling us "Just Do This", you will likely hear "No" in many cases. And it is in no way about attitude or anything. First, my position from day 1 has been to be very open and always set right expectations (to not have you wait and hope that something is coming when it's not). And why "No"? Simply because most users either do not know our vision and strategy around the particular product, or do not see a bigger picture, or both.

As Henry Ford once said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses".
Of course he would have said NO to this, but it's not because he had a bad attitude ;)
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:52 pm

apronk wrote:Besides if the scheduler is allowing it, isn't the responsibility of us as a company or the end user?
In any case it is not Veeam's responsibility.

Oh, and one more point I forgot to address - actually, I do consider it my responsibility to protect your data in every way possible, beyond just providing a tool that CAN do this well. And I go all the way to achieve this, including not providing easily accessible UI options that will leave people unprotected in scenarios they are not even thinking about due to lack of experience. For example, while you personally may fully understand and accept implications of excluding weekends - trust me, most people will not even think about those.

But in the end, if you can't recover your data (even if you are ultimately responsible for some decisions that led to this event), for me this still means I did not do my job well. Because I must ensure my users are successful protecting their data with my product.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:06 pm

I have to disagree with you there.
While I commend you for your principles, but however good your intentions are they are slightly misguided.
In the end, as you've put it, it is up to the end user how to put your software in practice, within boundaries off course.
To use your car analogy, however safe you can make it, you can't prevent people from driving it off the track.
And if I choose to let my car sit in the garage over the weekends, I can ;-)
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:04 pm

apronk wrote:To use your car analogy, however safe you can make it, you can't prevent people from driving it off the track.

Indeed, there are reasonable limits to what we can do :)

However, taking this very analogy even further:

a) Nevertheless, we do want to ensure that inexperienced driver does not slip off the track accidentally, without wanting to do so... think ABS/EBD. These systems severely limit what 1% of those professional drivers can do with the car, and this makes them really upset (just like lack of knobs in our current scheduler upsets you). However, these same systems make cars really safe for the remaining 99% of regular drivers, who are primary buyers anyway.

b) That said, we do recognize the needs of professional drivers too, and allow them to disable ABS/EBD (just like many cars do). Ability to start job from the command line is a perfect analogy here. It's not "in the way" on your dashboard, so this is something only advanced users will ever discover and will want to use - and this gives them absolute, full control over scheduling their backups. Total off-road ;)

These are actually perfect analogies that should make our product design approaches more clear.

Given that VEB is almost a consumer product for all sorts of users, it is a safer bet to have it backing up computer every day (to capture any new data), without ability to exclude certain days. Sure, no exclusions means useless (and tiny) restore points created on days when no data actually changes. So, excluding is very tempting. But one day, having this restore point may make a world of difference. Because you never know what will happen on those originally excluded days a week, a month, a year from now.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:52 am

Gostev wrote:b) That said, we do recognize the needs of professional drivers too, and allow them to disable ABS/EBD (just like many cars do)


But here's where the flaw in your analogy shows up ;-)
The disable ABS/EBD button in the car is plain as day in the dashboard for anyone to see and press.
So it can not be related to a hidden commandline option ;-)

Another approach; I can imagine you being on the road a lot, as many of us consultants are.
So when you are in your hotel, or on a location without fast internet (I mean slower then FTTH) then VEB consumes pretty much all available upstream bandwidth.
Especially because like most people you set up a secure connection to your workplace if you need data or need to work on shared projects.
And while the backup is running you can't do anything, VEB cripples pretty much everything network related at that moment for the duration of the backup.
Now I imagine not a lot of people have this particular case on a frequent basis and if they do they can change the schedule.
But to get back to the core of the issue, I don't think it is Veeam's intention to render the bandwidth useless during the backup.

Don't get me wrong I don't expect Veeam to come up with analyzing software or even latency measuring before starting the backup job.
I'm just trying to show scenario's where the Daily schedule can cripple quite some use cases.

Off course this is now fixed by commandline, and this helps us out a great deal, but I'm concerned for the users who travel (salesmen, consultants etc.) who will do most of their work on the road where this seriously impacts their work environments.

And in the line of quotes, here's one from Benjamin Franklin which really suits this discussion in my opinion: "People willing to trade their freedom for security deserve neither and will lose both"
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:01 am

Button might be there, but at least in all of my cars it was not easy and obvious to activate (for example, you had to hold if for 5-10 seconds). Not something an average user would figure out without actively pursuing and reading manuals.

apronk wrote:Another approach; I can imagine you being on the road a lot, as many of us consultants are.
So when you are in your hotel, or on a location without fast internet (I mean slower then FTTH) then VEB consumes pretty much all available upstream bandwidth.
Especially because like most people you set up a secure connection to your workplace if you need data or need to work on shared projects.
And while the backup is running you can't do anything, VEB cripples pretty much everything network related at that moment for the duration of the backup.
Now I imagine not a lot of people have this particular case on a frequent basis and if they do they can change the schedule.
But to get back to the core of the issue, I don't think it is Veeam's intention to render the bandwidth useless during the backup.

Sure, but now we came back to a totally different issue we both agree with anyway. Lack of control what network connection can and cannot be used for backup is definitely something that we are planning to address. You can see we already thought about these sort of problems right in v1, where we provided an option to restrict backup over metered connections (by the way, totally unique functionality not found in any other product on the market).
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:38 pm

Unfortunately that option to restrict over metered connections has always been greyed out :-/

Whilst I am very, no I am extremely happy with those intentions, my reasoning was different.
And your intentions are much better than a more advanced scheduler, I just wanted to point out that in the business case of travellers it would be handy if you could specify which days VEB should backup (when in the office) and when it should not (when on the road).

Anyway both ideas lead to Rome, yours just drives us in a Cadillac ;-)
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:33 pm

We can certainly agree on that one ;)

apronk wrote:Unfortunately that option to restrict over metered connections has always been greyed out :-/

This setting requires Windows 8 or later, as there is simply no way to tag a network connection as metered in other Windows versions.
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Re: Feature Request - More granular backup schedule settings

Veeam Logoby apronk » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:44 pm

Gostev wrote:This setting requires Windows 8 or later, as there is simply no way to tag a network connection as metered in other Windows versions.

Ah, that is a pity, we all use Windows 7 x64 and that won't change anytime soon.
Not even for Windows 8.2 (10).
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