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robg
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Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 05, 2016 9:36 pm

Hello. Is it possible to call in and get a case solved if a customer is not current on licensing?

That is how I choose to roll. I think it is ridiculous to pay for something year over year that is not being used. Not interested in updates either for a static environment that is pretty much set and forget. Charging a re-instatement fee is also pretty insulting.

In the rare event when the planets happen to line up just right, which will probably never happen, is the option available to pay extra to have that one incident solved?

thanks

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by Gostev » Apr 05, 2016 11:22 pm

Hi, Rob!

There's definitely no such option, and I don't believe it is being considered. Thing is, you must be up to date with the product version anyway to get support, as we only provide support for the current and previous (no hot fixes) versions. So, your desired scenario would be impossible even if we had per-incident support.

Thanks!

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 05, 2016 11:31 pm

Ok, cool. So depending on how you look at it, Veeam is actually a pay-as you go program which is disguised as a one-off software purchase. That is bordering on deceptive.

There is absolutely no way to buy this program once, and pay for it once, and expect to have emergency support, people have been very clever here to maximize profits.

There is really no technical reason you cannot support the older versions. Starting from let's say version 8, the new stuff is not so drastically different.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by Gostev » Apr 05, 2016 11:34 pm

robg wrote:Starting from let's say version 8, the new stuff is not so drastically different.
If it truly appears this way for the end users, then it means we're doing a hell of a job ;)
As for example, v9 had 43% of v8 code base updated or re-written.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 05, 2016 11:36 pm

Old code can still be supported. You have the same people who wrote it. And you surely didn't delete it.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by Gostev » Apr 05, 2016 11:45 pm

Sure, with software anything at all "can" be done. The only questions are how efficiently, and at what cost.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 05, 2016 11:50 pm

Well, let's hope they never need support. There are companies out there that do 1 thing only, they've done that 1 thing for the past 50 years, and they never change their IT, except when they are forced to by Microsoft, such as when Exchange expires every decade.

Backup software shouldn't need constant updating and a support contract by its very nature. It would be nice if your business model were more accommodating.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by Gostev » Apr 05, 2016 11:54 pm

Sounds good. Thank you for your feedback!

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by Jackf » Apr 07, 2016 7:55 pm 3 people like this post

Hi Rob,
I think any good IT manager. Keeps upto date with all software and hardware. We as an IT solutions provider simply refuse to sell anything without vendor support. All servers we supply we upgrade the support to 4+4 SLA. All networking switches have smartnets on them.
Time and time again I see infrastructures that have been left alone to age and this hinders the business. The task when it come up to upgrade is made so much more complex and this then incurs a greater professional services cost.
If I was you I'd change for ways and move with the time.
Always purchase support, always upgrade (with a good upgrade plan) and your clients will be in a better more supportable place.

Jack

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by mkaec » Apr 08, 2016 2:31 pm 1 person likes this post

robg wrote:Old code can still be supported. You have the same people who wrote it. And you surely didn't delete it.
It's a waste of resources, though, to spend time and effort troubleshooting issues that have been fixed in newer releases. That's a sensible reason to have an N-1 support policy.

Microsoft recently changed their policy on SQL Server cumulative updates from being released as "install as needed" hotfixes to "install preemptively". One reason was that their support data showed a lot of support time was being wasted on cases for issues that had been fixed in a CU, but that the customers had not installed do to the hotfix nature of the CUs.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by Pat490 » Apr 08, 2016 3:34 pm 1 person likes this post

I completely agree with Jackf!

Support is essential important to every production system, hardware & software! Also backup is mission critical!
And I have to say that Veeam support is excellent :)

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by albertwt » Apr 11, 2016 2:20 am 1 person likes this post

Rob,

Don't worry, Veeam Support is good and very helpful. You can ask anything related about Veeam software.
But yes in any case if you have some question, you can always ask in this forum but no one will be able to connect remotely to your server to fix it.

So far It's been a good experience with Veeam, hence my manager always renewing it annually.
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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by BlueComp » Apr 11, 2016 11:03 am 1 person likes this post

Can anyone point to a competing product that doesn't require maintenance for support? I don't think there are many.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by mkaec » Apr 11, 2016 1:52 pm 1 person likes this post

albertwt wrote:So far It's been a good experience with Veeam, hence my manager always renewing it annually.
Yes, Veeam official support and these forums have been much better than what I have experienced with other vendors.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by straycur » Apr 11, 2016 7:59 pm 2 people like this post

I know from personal experience that IBM will do one-off support on out of support versions of TSM and Sysback.
I've also seen people use third-party support at a more reasonable price for out of support versions.
IBM support for EOS versions costs an arm and a leg, and is often cost-prohibitive, for reasons mentioned by Gostev above.
For those products, earlier posts in user forums can be useful for actual experience and data, though I sometimes find the theory of how those products work is not correct.

I find the Veeam forums very helpful, and Veeam support when needed for supported versions is responsive.
Veeam support usually gets the answer right the first try, and seldom takes over three tries - an excellent hit rate, and worth the maintenance cost to provide protection for our data.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 11, 2016 11:01 pm

Jackf wrote:Hi Rob,
I think any good IT manager. Keeps upto date with all software and hardware. We as an IT solutions provider simply refuse to sell anything without vendor support. All servers we supply we upgrade the support to 4+4 SLA. All networking switches have smartnets on them.
Time and time again I see infrastructures that have been left alone to age and this hinders the business. The task when it come up to upgrade is made so much more complex and this then incurs a greater professional services cost.
If I was you I'd change for ways and move with the time.
Always purchase support, always upgrade (with a good upgrade plan) and your clients will be in a better more supportable place.

Jack
Jack, I know very well and appreciate the importance of staying up to date. But quite frankly, you are completely out of touch with reality if you think that a small business is going to keep investing tens of thousands of dollars every 3 years on new hardware when it is "obsolete" . And I use that term in air quotes.

Hardware is so insanely fast nowadays that it's entirely likely that the same servers can run for 20 years at not even 10% utilization and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as there is redundancy.

I was fully expecting this kind of answer. We are not all big companies with tons of money to throw away.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by albertwt » Apr 12, 2016 12:23 am

@RobG, So do you mean, you're expecting the Veeam Support to have the option like per incident basis just like Microsoft Product and Support Service payable by Credit Card ?
yes, that does make sense. Perhaps one day Veeam or any Veeam partners can support do that.
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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 12, 2016 12:25 am

Exactly - that's what I would like. The software works so well, chances are support will never be needed. Why pay for something you never use? It makes much more economical sense to pay an incident.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by micoolpaul » Apr 12, 2016 8:26 am 3 people like this post

You're paying to keep the lights on at Veeam, keeping engineers available to support. Every time I've used the support it's been great. You're also funding the R&D to make sure they can keep finding better ways of helping us protect our businesses. Do you mean to say that you don't have an on-going contract with an anti-virus vendor? They supply update in the same way, everything else around them changes and they have to move with it but they wouldn't expect us to pay each time we wanted to update our virus definitions or pay for support with a virus, it's more efficient to have an up front contract and let it roll.

If you are working at a bloated and red-tape heavy infrastructure where it takes a long time to get anything upgraded or if you are an SMB that is going to count every penny it has then by all means you could purchase Veeam and leave it as is. It sounds like you're going to install x number of VMs and leave them. But if you patch those VMs like you should do then your software is now newer than your backup software, how can Veeam possibly predict what Microsoft will do to Exchange or SQL over the next few years. A patch could come out breaking support for the Veeam Recovery Modules for Exchange & SQL. Then you'll need that patch to maintain support.

In summary and any sarcasm aside honestly it's well worth purchasing the software. I invested in Veeam Enterprise Plus instead of upgrading my VMware vSphere version because I trusted Veeam to protect my availability and backups better, that is how good Veeam is! Veeam support means R&D, Patches, New Versions, New Features, Emergency Support, it's a great value bundle.
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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 12, 2016 8:34 am

Bull. I paid for the software. It was a one-time purchase. I don't need to continue to fund Veeam for new versions of the software or pay to keep the lights on or anything ridiculous like that for support that I will never use.

So what you are confirming here, by this reasoning is that Veeam is actually a SERVICE that is disguised as a PRODUCT. You pay your entry fee and then you pay for the privilege of continuing to use it. Give me a break.

The anti-virus contract analogy is not applicable. Anti-virus software provides new definitions to stop new threats. Backup software doesn't need to keep changing if the environment it is protecting hardly changes. We don't needlessly keep upgrading ESXi either. It does its job and it's perfectly stable. What is the point?

Those things you mentioned about patches, those are supposed to be INCLUDED in the cost of major release software. For example if you have 8.0, you should be entitled to 8.1, 8.2, etc, for FREE because you bought the base product. That's how it works, everywhere else.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by micoolpaul » Apr 12, 2016 8:52 am 2 people like this post

You've summed up exactly why you don't need support then surely?

You're not going to patch your ESXi environment (hope it's not facing the internet or the security bugs will bite you badly one day!).

With regards to v8 meaning you get v8.1,v8.2 etc that's correct, you purchase it and get a year's worth of updates as standard. new major releases are annual, if you're lucky enough you purchase a v8 license and you did it near enough to v9 that you even get v9 upgrade for free. Whether you take it up or not is the case. BTW with the anti-virus analogy being "not applicable", read the release notes for 8.1, 8.2 etc, look at the world around you change and you'll see Mac OS X has yearly releases, Microsoft Windows 10 came out last year, ESXi 6, then 6.1, 6.2 etc. This is all going on around you and Veeam giving you a year's worth of support as standard to make sure you don't have a bad taste in your mouth post purchase isn't a bad thing.

You keep saying "fund" Veeam, you say it's support you'll never use. So buy a perpetual license, use that for your 10 years or whenever until your infrastructure starts to crumble and then buy another license then. You'll get your year's worth of support each time to make sure you don't have any niggling issues and then you're set.

Just remember that by not having upgrades you are limiting your infrastructure's ability to grow. Nobody here would use Veeam v6 to support Windows 10 or Windows Server 2016. So you can rule those VMs out if you want to use them and have support from Veeam, they weren't around when v6 came out so how could they predict how to perfectly support them.

You can run your infrastructure perfectly well without support since you've seen the future, you know your infrastructure isn't at risk, you know that you won't be using any new OS's (I'm assuming you will use 2012 until 2023 since you paid for it!), you won't patch those OS's since they won't have any problems.

Do you see where this is all falling apart, you're asking a backup software to backup future applications, that's why you should have definition updates to know how to guest process a new file system (ReFS) for example.

Just think about it, nobody here would judge you for purchasing support or not, the forum will still try and help but you'll have to expect more and more that they'll say in 2-3 years time, dude that was patched in version 11.1, what are you running?
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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by mkaec » Apr 12, 2016 2:10 pm 3 people like this post

albertwt wrote:...So do you mean, you're expecting the Veeam Support to have the option like per incident basis just like Microsoft Product and Support Service payable by Credit Card ?
yes, that does make sense. Perhaps one day Veeam or any Veeam partners can support do that.
That support you talk about is level 1 offshore support. In my dealings with it, their primary goal was to convince me that there was no problem and close the case as fast as possible to better their stats. In one case, I fought with several reps before getting to a higher tier that said "Oh, yeah. That's a known issue. The patch is being developed right now. We'll get it to you when it is ready." That was a huge waste of my time. Better support would have jumped right to telling me there is a patch in development.

I would not want Veeam support to drop down to this level. One of the reasons we switched backup software is because the previous vendor also had the same type of support that was just interested in closing cases as fast as possible.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 12, 2016 2:29 pm

It sure is nice to come in here and be talked down to by condescending individuals such as yourself who probably have half of my experience.

Your perspective is extremely short sighted and limited.

Only a moron would face ESXi directly to the internet.

An IT infrastructure doesn't necessarily "crumble" after 10 years. That's your inexperience talking. Windows 2003 was working perfectly fine until Microsoft ended support for it, that's why this client got rid of it and bought new servers.

I also never said that the OSs would never get patched. That's something completely different than installing a new version of windows server every few years. The incremental versions of Veeam are EXPECTED to fully support that version of Windows. If there is such a drastic change that requires a new Veeam, then we'll buy the new Veeam ONE TIME and go from there. That's the way it should be. Support should not be required.

"The infrastructure's ability to grow?" Pay attention better. I said that it doesn't grow, it will never grow. It doesn't NEED to grow. This client maybe has 20 employees and that's it.

You are arrogant to say the least. There is more than one way to do things.

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by robg » Apr 12, 2016 2:38 pm

And why is it practically unheard of to pay Microsoft for ongoing support?

Don't we need to "keep their lights on?"

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by mkaec » Apr 12, 2016 3:34 pm 1 person likes this post

Microsoft keeps the lights on with SAM reviews. :)

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by jmmarton » Apr 12, 2016 3:37 pm 3 people like this post

In a previously life I was an IT Manager for a smaller firm, before moving on to becoming an SE elsewhere and now I'm an SE here at Veeam. I know the struggles I went through trying to keep my old environment up-to-date while still keeping an eye on budgets. Since moving on to the vendor side of things, I've worked with customers of all sizes. No matter how big or small someone is, no one ever wants to just throw away money. Costs are always important to keep down.

At the end of the day, each organization must make up its own mind on how to maintain its IT infrastructure. Luckily virtualization has changed things to where the hardware lifecycle can sometimes be lengthened. But the operating systems and applications continue to have their lifespans and it's important to keep various aspects up-to-date. With Veeam, maintenance is roughly 20% the cost of the license. So for a ballpark estimate if you pay maintenance annually for five years or instead buy new licenses once every five years you're paying similar costs. It's not unreasonable to assume changes in the infrastructure will require newer versions of Veeam at least once every five years (e.g. upgrading VMware or Hyper-V to support newer versions of Windows or Linux which themselves are requirements for newer versions of core applications needed to run the business). The question then becomes do you need to upgrade Veeam more frequently as a result of other changes in the environment or to take advantage of new backup/replication technologies introduced by Veeam? If so, then paying annual maintenance will be more cost effective. If not, then by all means upgrade once every five years (or less) and know that you'll have full access to everything Veeam offers from a support & maintenance perspective for one year each time you upgrade.

Joe

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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by micoolpaul » Apr 12, 2016 3:57 pm 1 person likes this post

Sorry if that's the way you feel about it. I'm not here to start a flame war. I'll start over.

My experience with Windows 2003 was that it was holding the infrastructure back and that services that relied upon that platform had far more problems and limitations than later builds. That's my definition of crumbling, the competition starts becoming more flexible than the static infrastructure supports and it gets left behind. Windows Server 2003 R2's file search and indexing for example is a point in itself as to how limiting these older OS's can be.

My point with patching is Windows Server 2012 R2 is going to be patched until 2023, Microsoft have always had the impossible job of trying to maintain compatibility with their newer OS's whilst not breaking existing requirements and inevitably in the next 7 years we should all fully expect there to be teething problems where Microsoft's stance will be your infrastructure must be running on x version or patch to maintain compatibility, such as Exchange CU's to support co-habitation with Exchange 2016. When Microsoft change these things there's always the chance that Veeam's application would break and that an upgrade to the latest application could be necessary.

Joe summed it up perfectly in that a once in every 5 year upgrade is realistic and it doesn't cost much more. I've found from my experience that it's easier to get smaller running costs in budgets than it is to go for the massive spends every x years. Your organisation may be different. You may even be able to get a discount on multiple years of support where you can propose a longer term solution at a better value.

The most important thing here is nobody knows your infrastructure better than you and I honestly don't wish a bad day on anyone. I've seen too often people cut support ties and been left to pick up the pieces so I try to urge people to think more of the worst case and how they're prepared. That's why we're looking at backup software here, because we know disaster is inevitable it's just how prepared for it we are. Kudos to you for doing so and looking at a decent availability solution rather than cutting costs to the point of a basic Windows Server backup tool. I only mentioned your infrastructure's ability to grow because not knowing the exact sector you're working in there's always the potential for legislation to impact the way your business operates. But I honestly don't know so I just hope that the company have been honest about it's 3-5 year plans with you and they don't blindside you. Again had it happen from experience.

Good Luck with it Rob, hopefully if there's no real justification for you past the 1 year included support that you'll be set until the next inevitable EOL by Microsoft!
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Re: Does Veeam have incident based support?

Post by barrnunn » Apr 19, 2016 7:58 pm

I think you already have your answer Rob, but I agree somewhat with your philosophy of not paying for something you will not use. I am a loyal Veeam user and just upgraded my original Veeam v6.5 backup to v9.0. I have kept maintenance on the product because I feel it is a critical piece of my environment to not have it. I knew my v6.5 was no longer supported by Veeam, but rarely had any problems with it, thanks to it being a solid product and partially because my environment remains fairly static.

The only real reason I upgraded was due to the increased number of VMs in my Hyper-V cluster due to obsolescence of my old physical servers, causing me to run out of time to complete all the backups in the window I have. We are very cost conscience and I have maintained servers in excess of 15 years, by paying for HP Care packs, rather than shelling out for new Servers. Some environments do not require the horsepower of the newer servers, and run their application fine for way beyond the industry "norm. I replaced the older Veeam v6.5 server with 2 "newer" repurposed servers and took that opportunity to also upgrade my Veeam to v9. I really see no difference or feature(s) that would have compelled me to upgrade, which is nice because their was no learning curve. I suspect there are some performance enhancements and "under the hood" differences that I don't see, but other than getting back to a supported level, I really had no compelling reason to change.

All that said, I am very glad I had support from Veeam during the upgrade, even though the support tech initially provided incorrect backwards compatibility information which was later corrected, because I was able to make sure I was taking the correct steps to perform such a crucial upgrade. Their support has been extremely supportive and helpful through the entire process.

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