mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby devzero » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:12 pm

thanks for the info.

i`m not amused, because when ordering veeam i told to the distributor that we would like to have all licenses with one key - now AFTER the order we got multiple keys and i learn it the hard way, that standard and enterprise apparently cannot be mixed.

so i need a second veeam server to use the enterprise edition ?

damn!

where is that information hidden - i neither found a hint on the website nor did the distributor tell us that we can`t have the licenses in one key or we need to use 2 servers.

i only found this thread in the forum and i`m really curious, why vmware can mix standard & enterprise, but veeam can`t.
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby foggy » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:12 pm

Actually, this information is definitely not hidden, but available in multiple places on our web-site. For example, in the Veeam Backup & Replication Licensing and Pricing FAQ, which can be downloaded either from the Licensing and Pricing web page, or from the customer's Licensing Portal:

FAQ wrote:
10. Can I have a mix of Enterprise and Standard Edition licenses?
All license editions must be the same within a given physical location—either all Enterprise Edition or all Standard Edition. In addition, all license editions must be the same between physical locations if you want to manage them through one Veeam Enterprise Manager. The requirement for “all Enterprise” or “all Standard” has been in place since Enterprise Edition was first introduced with v5. It continues with v6 and applies to all Veeam Backup & Replication
deployments, including multi-hypervisor deployments. For example, if you have 5 licenses for VMware and 5 licenses for Hyper-V in a given location, all 10 licenses must be either Enterprise or Standard Edition.

11. Can I have a mix of tier A and tier B licenses?
Yes, you can have a mix of tier A and tier B licenses to accommodate your particular mix of host hardware.


Strange that distributor did not tell you this if you asked him directly, probably there was some kind of misunderstanding.
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[MERGED] Veeam licensing (?!)

Veeam Logoby marama » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:09 pm

Hi there.

We are running ESXi (standard, no cluster) on a 2 socket configuration with ~40 VMs, and are using "Veeam B&R Essentials Enterprise +", Veeam software performs backup and replication, one replication goes to offsite ESXi and the other one goes to the old ESXi server.
So we have a single (2 CPU) E+ license. Next week we'll have a new server coming in and it will become the main server, hence all the VMs will be migrated and Veeam license will be migrated, too. So far so good.

The current server is supposed to be serving for not so critical VMs, but it should need to get backed up OR replicated, too. I though - no problem, Veem must have a product that would take care of the machine. And Veem does have the product (B&R standard) but it doesn't allow me to purchase it because in the same office we already have an E+ license (?!?!?!!?). So we are "forced" to either:

- pay more for the features we're not going to use anyway
- move the Server to another office ("another physical location")
- buy the standard license on the name of another company (we ave few companies registered, few offices)

So before we dump Veeam for this I just wanted to check if I am missing something. Unitrends wants only 1/4 of the Veeam E+ license, gives 50% rebates for migrating from Veeam to Unitrends...

I've had a lot of technical issues with Veeam software, but was happy with support and was/am a happy customer. But the license model is in conflict with some basic principles because we seem to be pressured to buy license-level we don't need - for no technical reason. For me it's like MS telling their customers they are not allowed to purchase different Windows Servers editions (?!) - for no technical reasons.

Maybe someone can provide me with more insight on this issue, or a workaround.

TIA

P.S. I know a single Veeam instance can handle only the same types of license, but we are talking about not-clustered Hosts, that can be managed through independent Veem instances (no problem for us), independent vCenter...
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Re: Veeam licensing (?!)

Veeam Logoby Vitaliy S. » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Hello,

marama wrote:The current server is supposed to be serving for not so critical VMs, but it should need to get backed up OR replicated, too. I though - no problem, Veem must have a product that would take care of the machine. And Veem does have the product (B&R standard) but it doesn't allow me to purchase it because in the same office we already have an E+ license (?!?!?!!?).

Why not to buy another 2/4 sockets of Veeam B&R Essentials Enterprise + for that new server which will be your new production host? That would allow you to keep existing backup server that will protect both old and new ESXi hosts without any configuration changes. And as far as I know Essentials price is cheaper that VBR Standard, so I guess it should fit your case, unless I'm missing something...

Thanks!
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Re: Veeam licensing (?!)

Veeam Logoby marama » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:34 pm

What I need for my server is "Essentials standard", it costs some 700 EUR and it would fit the budget and does everything I need (replication and backup for not so critical VMs). But Veeam tells me: "we know we have the product that fits your needs and budget, but we don't want to sell it to you so you would buy a product that has more features you don't need and costs more". This old server has not so many cores, is rather slow and not much RAM, probably worth 400 EUR, so no, I am not comfortable buying a 2000 EUR license to have it backuped because Veeam does have a 700 EUR product that does that, and Unitrends has it for 500 EUR. I am still hoping the representative got something wrong and that it was some sort of misunderstanding, though this is what it says on the homepage:

http://www.veeam.com/backup-licensing-faq.html

"Can a customer have more than one edition in their environment?
No, only one edition (Standard, Enterprise, or Enterprise Plus) can be used in the same physical location."

I have more then 25 years in IT and such policies irritates me very much - not allowing customers to install different products on completely independent systems, only so there could be more $$$ earned. Besides, how is the definition of "physical location". Is it a rack unit, is it an office, is it a site, is it a city, is it a country...? I didn't read the fineprint, but technicaly it is not possible to have to objects on the same physical location anyway, otherwise there would be no car crashes :D.
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby Vitaliy S. » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:19 pm

Yes, I understand your concern, but cannot comment on the pricing, as I'm not involved in sales and pricing decisions. If you contact our sales team again, they would probably be able to offer you some more options on this matter.
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby marama » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:35 pm

I understand you not being able to cover this non-technical issue, but to me as a customer it's a no-go for a solution provider/partner. Lots of SMEs cannot afford lawyers and have them read all the fine print, I like to engage with solution providers that use common sense, if I need a product they have, they will let me buy one. I am not comfortable with building up dependencies with such policies. I urge Veeam to reconsider their policies. Big enterprises probably don't mind, but I can imagine smaller ones having not being happy with this. Veeam has a good product, but just as Mercedes lets you buy a B-class for <our wife even if you already own a S-class (although in the same family), Veeam should be able to do the same. There are alternatives on the market. This limitation is easy to go around, so I am not looking for some special treatment for our company (as I said, we don't like building up any such dependencies), I am uncomfortable as long as the general policy has such unreasonable limitations. I opened up this topic hoping someone would maybe provide me with some reasonable explanation I might have overseen. Either Veeam thinks E+ is the best for our case scenario and that's why they don't let me buy the standard edition, or they are aware Standard would be good for us but they don't care about what's good for us but only what's good for them. Very disappointed.
But thans for trying to help ;)
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Re: [MERGED] Veeam licensing (?!)

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:10 pm

marama wrote:But the license model is in conflict with some basic principles because we seem to be pressured to buy license-level we don't need - for no technical reason.

Just wanted to add that we do allow editions downgrade, so in case you really don't need Enterprise Plus edition functionality as per your "license-level we don't need" statement, you are free to do that, and then buy more Standard edition licenses. Or, are you saying that our sales are unwilling to downgrade your current licenses to Standard edition?

marama wrote:Unitrends wants only 1/4 of the Veeam E+ license, gives 50% rebates for migrating from Veeam to Unitrends...

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." (c) John Ruskin

marama wrote:I opened up this topic hoping someone would maybe provide me with some reasonable explanation I might have overseen.

The explanation is actually very simple and reasonable. Having an Enterprise Plus install available in the same physical location enables users to leverage full product functionality on backups produced by a Standard edition install. All you need to do is register backup repositories populated by Standard edition install in the Enterprise Plus edition install.
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby marama » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:38 am

Hi Goestev,

Just wanted to add that we do allow editions downgrade, so in case you really don't need Enterprise Plus edition functionality as per your "license-level we don't need" statement, you are free to do that, and then buy more Standard edition licenses. Or, are you saying that our sales are unwilling to downgrade your current licenses to Standard edition?


I'm afraid we have some misunderstanding here. I have 2 servers,

Server 1 with mission critical VMs that needs to be backed up, locally and offsite, using many of the features from the E+ edition.
Server 2 with non-critical VMs, just some VMs for the QA people that don't need to be taken offsite and not se bad if the VMs go bust.

So don't see why would Veem suggest edition downgrade as then I would loose E+ functionality I need for server 1.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." (c) John Ruskin


Look, I don't mind Veem spending millions for marketing, I don't mind Veeam products missing some features Unitrends has (there are also some features I'd miss in Unitrends that Veeam has). This is not supposed to be Unitrends vs Veeam topic, so I will refrain from commenting on your suggestion that Unitrends being cheaper is because they have worse product.
What I do mind is the arrogance in licensing, and I'm afraid that's what I am seeing here. For me it's not only price, for our case there is little point in performing offsite backups if they cannot be encrypted (ok, maybe the feature will come in new Veeam version, too), but I really wouldn't go down that road and start comparing Unitrends and Veam in this way. I am talking about the identical basic functionality we need.

The explanation is actually very simple and reasonable. Having an Enterprise Plus install available in the same physical location enables users to leverage full product functionality on backups produced by a Standard edition install. All you need to do is register backup repositories populated by Standard edition install in the Enterprise Plus edition install.


I don't get it, how can I produce standard edition installs if I am not able to buy them? Why am I not given the choice of deciding what "product functionality" I need? For me it's no big deal having to take the old server to the other floor/office and buying the standard license, but I hate doing it for reasons provided by Veeam. If the standard edition is that inferior and you don't want your support to deal with the mess it leaves it behind, then why not stop selling it. If you consider it to be a good product, then why not let the customers buy it, at least for non-clustered environments like ours.

Bye
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:09 pm

marama wrote:
The explanation is actually very simple and reasonable. Having an Enterprise Plus install available in the same physical location enables users to leverage full product functionality on backups produced by a Standard edition install. All you need to do is register backup repositories populated by Standard edition install in the Enterprise Plus edition install.

I don't get it, how can I produce standard edition installs if I am not able to buy them?

Exactly. Today, you cannot produce Standard edition installs side by side with Enterprise Plus install because we will not sell you additional licenses of lesser edition for the same physical location. If we allowed this, users would have been able to do exactly that, thus rendering the license levels meaningless. People would then choose to buy many Standard licenses, and just 1 socket of Enterprise Plus, and use that to unlock full product potential for all backups made by Standard edition. So, we don't allow this. I hope this makes sense now.

However, this got me thinking. We could have stamped every backup file we produced with the edition level, and did not allow using advanced restore features on backup files produced by lesser editions than the corresponding backup server. This way, we could have removed the licensing limitation in question, and allow buying multiple editions per physical location. I need to think more about this to make sure I am not missing anything, but from the first sight this looks doable.
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby marama » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:31 am

So if I got it right, Veeam is not allowing mixing of editions not because of forcing the people to pay for features they wouldn't use, but because they forgot (?) to implement the technical mechanism that would prevent people using features they haven't payed for?
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby marama » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:33 pm

BTW, I don't mind Veeam spending millions on marketing, but I do mind some things at Veeam, one of those seems to be the tone when the competitor is addressed. I said Veeam has a good product and support. There are some features Veeam is still behind, there are some features where Veeam is ahead. But the argument that Veeam should cost me 4 times as much (2000 vs 500) because Veeam has a superior product for my case, doesn't hold. The only reason we went with E+ is because we do offsite backups, and Veeam doesn't have a solution for encrypting the data (competitor does have this feature), rendering he feature only half-usable for us. So I'd really be carefull when suggesting the competitors have inferior products (I have no interest in starting a Veeam vs Unitrends thread, people should try both and see what fits their needs better, each has pros and cons).
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:28 pm

Hi,
just to reply to your previous post, the explanation Anton gave you is more simple and is not about missing locks or features preventions. We do not have any lock in the backup file, so the same backup file can be opened by any edition of the software, and then is the license that allows you to do/don't do things. If you create a backup with the standard edition and you open it with an Ent+, you can leverage all the features of Ent+.

What Anton is suggesting is to set the edition level directly inside the backup file, so a backup file created with standard edition would be opened with the Ent+ edition, but it will still deny you the use of the specific feature set of that feature. Only the original features available for the edition you used to do the backup will be available.
Luca Dell'Oca
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

marama wrote:So if I got it right, Veeam is not allowing mixing of editions not because of forcing the people to pay for features they wouldn't use, but because they forgot (?) to implement the technical mechanism that would prevent people using features they haven't payed for?

No, we have not "forgot", but rather never even considered this due to lack of requests to mixing multiple editions in completely separate installs. It's was just me brainstorming how mixing COULD have been allowed potentially, in response to your request.

Yes, I consider this a feature request, just like encryption for example. We have not "forgot" encryption either - we just waited to get enough feature requests before deciding to invest in implementing one. And this was a totally right bet: we identified the real need for this feature correctly, as the history shows (we will have 120'000 customers by the time we release v8 with encryption, and all those users have bought our product despite lack of encryption).

marama wrote:So I'd really be carefull when suggesting the competitors have inferior products (I have no interest in starting a Veeam vs Unitrends thread, people should try both and see what fits their needs better, each has pros and cons).

I am not suggesting anything, and of course each product has pros and cons... it's about correct balance of pros and cons. For example, the fact that we are lacking some features did not stop you from buying our product, meaning that we have made the right bets (and they did not). And without starting a technical debate, let's just look at the facts here:

Unitrends
25 years old company with about 10 times smaller customer base than Veeam in its 8 years (approximating their numbers based on the last public info I saw).
Probably never been profitable, so ended up being acquired by IVP recently.
Weak R&D, lacks features and prefers buy vs. build approach (aggressive acquisitions of other unprofitable "on sale" vendors on IVP money lately).
Product so poor they are only able to sell it 4 times cheaper than Veeam per your statement above (somehow, I do not see Ferraris sold at 25% of cost of Hyundai).

Veeam
8 year old company with 10 times larger customer base than 3 times older Unitrends.
Stable and profitable for many years, not looking to sell to anyone as the result.
Strong R&D, build vs. buy approach. All technologies developed in-house (efficient support, quick fixes).
Product with over 50 industry awards, acquired more new customers from the beginning of this year to date than Unitrends in its entire 25 years of existence.

That said, of course it's totally up to you what vendor to place your bets on. Especially when you are constrained with how much you are ready to spend, at least in terms of CapEx (I totally understand and appreciate your situation). I will certainly forward your pricing and licensing feedback to the sales and executive management teams, but I would not expect quick changes in the licensing policy, because my idea above, if approved, requires significant changes in the code.
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Re: mix Standard and Enterprise License/Backup

Veeam Logoby marama » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:38 pm

I don't like this showing who has the bigger cock, let each side speak for itself (or customers).

It's not about number of customers (sure, you invest much more in marketing), and as I said - you do have a good product (just as probably Unitrends has), but if you strart doing marketing based on negative campain
against the competitor - it might backfire so you might want to stop with that. Unitrends and Veeam don't share the same product base, though I am sure Veeam does make more money.
I was very specific about our needs and I wrote what bothered me. I am not rooting for switching from Veeam to Unitrends, but am rooting for Veeam fullfiling my (and other customers) wishes, and that doesn't include that tone of arguments, I have no use of that. I would have use (and pay for it) if I could have my secondary server backed up or replicated on a level somewhat higher then VirtualGhetto. I presented you with a unreasonable price offered by Veeam (2.000 Veeam vs 500 Unitrends), and I will be happy if I see you provide a more reasonable pricing from your side. As well as fullfilling the encryption model (Unitrends probably has a niche there). Of course, as a customer I don't need to care much about your feature feasibility, I can only present you with my needs and expectations (having no idea if other customers have the same needs). I have addressed the somewhat unreasonable pricing for my scenario, said what the competitors would charge me (hoping to point out how unreasonable your price is), and here we are talking about who has the bigger cock. I'd really be happy to see you implement more reasonable pricing for secondary servers (not just for my case) and have the encryption implemented, and I'll continue being a happy customer.
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