Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup repository

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Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup repository

Veeam Logoby jandrewartha » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:51 pm

So I've built a backup server to be a copy target and store monthly archives for 12mo+. I currently have 12x8TB WD Red Pros and 2x 400GB Intel 750 NVMe SSDs, and the case has room for 36 3.5" HDDs in total. So now I come to the question of how to provision the storage. ReFS of course, but then do I use Storage Spaces or Storage Spaces Direct (S2D)? SS is simple, but if I do tiering it doesn't support parity, only mirroring, and retiers once a day via a scheduled task. S2D is more complex and technically needs multiple nodes, but I found a blog posts that suggests you can set it up with one node by setting
Code: Select all
-FaultDomainAwarenessDefault PhysicalDisk
when creating a pool. Licensing isn't an issue, we get datacentre included as part of our education site license. Thoughts?
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby Gostev » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:11 pm

S2D, now doubt - much more feature rich than SS already, and Microsoft keeps adding more cool features there! While SS is considered a legacy tech.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby jandrewartha » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:10 pm

Hi Gostev, that doesn't surprise me, but am I going to shoot myself in the foot trying to do S2D on a single node?
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:31 pm

I personally would not build and store my backups on a non-supported configuration if I really cared about them. While there are hackish ways to get S2D on a single node, they are not supported. I've seen tons of problems even with 2 node S2D and wouldn't really recommend less than a 3 node configuration. Also, S2D requires 2016 Datacenter, while regular storage spaces only requires standard edition, so if you're looking at single node I believe your only option is really legacy storage spaces.

Biggest negative to simple storage spaces is write performance but you can compensate for this somewhat by allocating a large write cache when you create the virtual disk. I believe the maximum size is 100GB (default is something like 1GB for mirrored and 4GB for parity) and I think this is the best use case for NVMe drives rather than tiering, however, I'm not sure that will be workable Intel 750's as those are not high endurance SSDs and write cache will likely burn them out quickly.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:36 pm

I wonder why you want to use storage spaces, and not rely on the hardware raid controller of the server? Yes, you lose self-healing of corrupted blocks, but the performance penalty for SS is significant in any environment I've seen. And even on a simple volume, you still get all the benefits like blockclone and integrity streams.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby jandrewartha » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:14 am

I was originally speccing the hardware for ZFS, including an IT-mode SAS controller, and saw S2D as the Windows equivalent with the block-clone benefits of ReFS being better than ZFS dedupe, but I didn't realise the limitations until now that I've installed it. For now I've set up a mirrored, tiered environment.

Is there a quick reference for the best practices for repository and job settings on ReFS? I've found plenty of blog posts but it'd be nice if there was a central wiki or something.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:48 am 1 person likes this post

Hi,
we are trying to consolidate all the information coming from the threads we have here into a single document, I agree that especially the 37 pages of "refs 4k horror stories" is hard to read from start to end. It may take some time though.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby jandrewartha » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Hi Luca,

That's good to hear. I think your blog post https://www.virtualtothecore.com/en/an- ... dows-2016/ was one of the ones I read when speccing this server months ago, it must have been before you added the caveat about tiering requiring S2D.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:52 pm

yeah, it's a subtle difference, it works even on single servers, but it's not supported by Microsoft.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby nismoau » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:49 am

Our experiences trialing Storage Spaces from a backup repository running WS 2012R2 and an old FC SAN attached has been brilliant. The SAN has a mish mash of disk types and speeds, and we've thrown them together on the SAN-side in RAID groups, grouped by common disk type, size and speed. Then, on the WS side, presented the locally separate disks as one single volume using Storage Spaces, and set up faster RAID groups with the 15k SAS disks as the 'SSD tier'. We get great performance out of the unit for both backups and restores, and the obvious bonus of the larger aggregated single volume to house backups.

In my opinion, this option is far better than Veeam's built-in Scale-out repository feature, also.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:51 am 1 person likes this post

Just as a note, Veeam Scale-out backup repository has a different goal than SS, S2D or any other scale-out storage system, think about it as more a logical aggregation/federation of multiple repositories. There are advantages like single pointer for backup targets (even when you change extents) and evacuation options (useful for migration of backups). You can even think about having multiple SS volumes be part of the same SOBR group.
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby eschek » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:09 pm

jandrewartha wrote:So I've built a backup server to be a copy target and store monthly archives for 12mo+. I currently have 12x8TB WD Red Pros and 2x 400GB Intel 750 NVMe SSDs, and the case has room for 36 3.5" HDDs in total. So now I come to the question of how to provision the storage. ReFS of course, but then do I use Storage Spaces or Storage Spaces Direct (S2D)? SS is simple, but if I do tiering it doesn't support parity, only mirroring, and retiers once a day via a scheduled task. S2D is more complex and technically needs multiple nodes, but I found a blog posts that suggests you can set it up with one node by setting
Code: Select all
-FaultDomainAwarenessDefault PhysicalDisk
when creating a pool. Licensing isn't an issue, we get datacentre included as part of our education site license. Thoughts?


Hi,
you can configure tiering with parity and it is supported (i had opened a microsoft ticket in the past to got a confirmation)! I have done this with windows server 2016 (no more scheduled tasks for tiering). You need to do that with powershell and not with the GUI like this:

create a pool with all available disks:
New-StoragePool -FriendlyName "<poolname>" -PhysicalDisks (Get-PhysicalDisk -CanPool $true) -StorageSubSystemFriendlyName (Get-StorageSubSystem).FriendlyName

create two tiers with interleave size 512kb:
New-StorageTier -StoragePoolFriendlyName <poolname> -FriendlyName HDD_Tier -MediaType HDD -ResiliencySettingName Parity -Interleave 524288
New-StorageTier -StoragePoolFriendlyName <poolname> -FriendlyName SSD_Tier -MediaType SSD -ResiliencySettingName Mirror -Interleave 524288

get the max size of both tiers in terabyte:
$hdd_maxsize=(Get-StorageTierSupportedSize -FriendlyName HDD_Tier -ResiliencySettingName Parity | ft @{l="TierSizeMax(TB)";e={$_.TierSizeMax/1TB}}).TierSizeMax
$ssd_maxsize=(Get-StorageTierSupportedSize -FriendlyName SSD_Tier -ResiliencySettingName Mirror| ft @{l="TierSizeMax(TB)";e={$_.TierSizeMax/1TB}}).TierSizeMax

create the virtual disk / virtual volume with the max tier sizes:
New-Volume -StoragePoolFriendlyName "<poolname>" -FriendlyName Volume1 -FileSystem ReFS -StorageTierFriendlyName SSD_Tier, HDD_Tier -StorageTierSizes <max ssd tier size>TB,<max hdd tier size>TB -AllocationUnitSize 64KB -DriveLetter E

More information to interleave sizes:
http://www.dell.com/support/manuals/de/ ... lang=en-us
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wi ... mance.aspx
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby tranquilnet » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:00 pm

Thank you all for creating this post. I reviewed all responses and referenced articles.

Assuming a 36 x 3.5 inch drive bay + 2 x 2.5 inch drive bay server chassis, is it correct that the suggested/supported SINGLE server solution is:

- 2 x CPU
- 64GB Memory
- Windows 2016 Server Standard
- 2 x SSD Hardware RAID1 OS Partition (NTFS)
- 36 x HDD Hardware RAID10 DATA Partition (ReFS)

And the "better" MULTI-SERVER solution is:

- 2 x CPU
- 64GB Memory
- Windows 2016 Server Datacenter
- 6 x SSD storage tier presented to the OS as individual disks (S2D)
- 30 x HDD storage tier presented to the OS as individual disks (S2D)

Lastly, w/ ReFS, what is the recommended configured block size?

Thanks,

-W
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:22 am

Go for 64k and NEVER EVER use 4k :)
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Re: Storage spaces or S2D on 2016 for archive backup reposit

Veeam Logoby nmdange » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:46 pm

With 36-bays, I probably have the exact same physical server you are thinking of purchasing :) I use RAID 50, not RAID 10. RAID 10 wastes too much space imo. A good hardware RAID controller will still get you good performance with RAID 50 or RAID 60. I also have a 45-bay JBOD attached to the raid controller for additional space.

One suggestion, given how cheap RAM is these days, I would go for 128GB or 256GB of RAM. With 2 CPUs, you'd want at least 4 DIMMs, and it's more cost effective to buy 32GB DIMMs. ReFS on 2016 also really likes RAM :)

Also, if you are thinking of doing S2D, go with a minimum of 4-nodes to get dual-parity. Supermicro offers a 36-bay chassis with 4 optional U.2 NVMe drives as well which is nice. Also important with S2D is the use of RDMA-capable 10gb+ NICs (Mellanox or Chelsio). There are additional settings on both the server and switches you have to configure (e.g. priority flow control). If you aren't sure about configuring RDMA correctly, then I would stick with a single server with hardware RAID.
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