v9: BitLooker Zeroing

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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby hyvokar » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:56 pm 2 people like this post

Not sure if this is the case. Because the free space on the VM disk does not change THAT much. My guess is that dedup full optimization shuffles data around and rearrange it. That causes blocks to change and veeam to back them up. In the past I ran scheduled sdelete after on saturdays, and active full backup after that. It seemed to help. However, I removed that after v9 and bitlooker.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby PTide » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:44 am

Hi,

hyvokar wrote:My guess is that dedup full optimization shuffles data around and rearrange it. That causes blocks to change and veeam to back them up.
Absolutely correct.

hyvokar wrote:So can someone confirm, should bitlooker work with windows dedupe...
It is better to perform dedupe prior to backup. Otherwise the same blocks will be backed up twice: before deduplication and after deduplication due to CBT.

hyvokar wrote:...and forever reverse incremental backups ?
Please take a look at this post regarding bitlooker behaviour with reverse incremental mode.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby hyvokar » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:51 am

PTide wrote:It is better to perform dedupe prior to backup. Otherwise the same blocks will be backed up twice: before deduplication and after deduplication due to CBT.


Hi!

This is exactly what is happening. First windows dedup, then backup. I'm just wondering, why doesnt the bitlooker zeroing seem to have desider effects.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby hyvokar » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:05 am

PTide wrote:Please take a look at this post regarding bitlooker behaviour with reverse incremental mode.


It just links back to this post.


So my question still is: Should bitlooker work with Windows2012 deduplication and forever reverse incremental jobs, or do I need to continue using sdelete?
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby PTide » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:33 pm

This is exactly what is happening. First windows dedup, then backup. I'm just wondering, why doesnt the bitlooker zeroing seem to have desider effects.
May I ask you if the results were the same without BitLooker enabled?

Should bitlooker work with Windows2012 deduplication and forever reverse incremental jobs, or do I need to continue using sdelete?
Sdelete creates a huge file filled with zeroes and deletes it afterwards thus cleaning up space on your drive (including the deduped space). With reverse incremental that will cause backup job to place previous versions of all blocks that have been zeroed into .vrb.

BitLooker detects if the file has been deleted and includes it into vrb.

Deduplication in Windows 2012 actually marks deduplicated data location as free thus BitLooker places that data into .vrb as well.

In other words - BitLooker does work with dedupe and reverse incremental chain in a strict accordance with all the rules I've descirbed. If you still feel that something is not working properly you can open a support case so our support team can take a closer look at your setup. Should you decide to open a case please post your case ID.

Thank you.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby hyvokar » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:04 pm

So, I still need to use Sdelete to avoid backup files getting 200GB bigger due windows deduplication? I will open a support case, after the current ones are solved...
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby mkaec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:19 pm

I personally don't think SDelete will help. SDelete is redundant if BitLooker is active. In my experience, I've found that Windows Dedup just generates changed blocks, sometimes a lot, as part of normal operation.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby VladV » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:34 pm

And they will be picked up by the incremental or full backup when Bitlooker is disabled.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby mkaec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:39 pm

They'll get picked up even if BitLooker is enabled. The only way for them to not get picked up is if the files are created and deleted before the next backup runs. If you're doing daily backups, that's not likely to happen. When a garbage collection routine runs, it is working on blocks that have been around for more than a day.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby hyvokar » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:39 pm

VladV wrote:And they will be picked up by the incremental or full backup when Bitlooker is disabled.

But in my case they seem to be picked up even if I have bitlooker enabled :(

I will open support case on this one later.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby VladV » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:44 pm

mkaec wrote:They'll get picked up even if BitLooker is enabled. The only way for them to not get picked up is if the files are created and deleted before the next backup runs. If you're doing daily backups, that's not likely to happen. When a garbage collection routine runs, it is working on blocks that have been around for more than a day.

Garbage collection deletes the references to deleted deduped files. After a deduplication run you will see the free space increase before GC thus the number of marked clean but dirty blocks increase also. Those blocks should not be picked up by Veeam when using Bitlooker as it is free space according to MFT.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby mkaec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:47 pm

When a file is deleted, its contents may be in a container that is shared with blocks from other files that haven't been deleted. Garbage collection goes through and repackages the blocks of the non-deleted files. This creates new/changed blocks that Veeam needs to back up.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby VladV » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:55 pm

mkaec wrote:When a file is deleted, its contents may be in a container that is shared with blocks from other files that haven't been deleted. Garbage collection goes through and repackages the blocks of the non-deleted files. This creates new/changed blocks that Veeam needs to back up.

GC actually deletes (removes from MFT) the unreferenced chunks, it does not repackage anything. Repackaging comes when you defragment a dedup volume.

If you monitor the dedup operation you will see that the free space increases (if it can find actual common blocks) by deleting redundant ones and creating smaller sized references. This deletion is considered free space by NTFS.
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby mkaec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:03 pm

From https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3066175:

"Full garbage collection generates much more churn on the volume, because every chunk container is compacted (rewritten) if there are any unreferenced chunks."
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Re: v9: BitLooker Zeroing

Veeam Logoby VladV » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:17 pm

"The data deduplication feature's garbage collection job reclaims the unreferenced chunks." from https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh769303(v=vs.85).aspx

The compaction that you referenced is made by deleting unreferenced chunks like I said. It also depends if you actual schedule a full GC or normal GC. Of course it has a very high churn because in reality a deletion is a modification and so a lot of blocks are modified. It may be that because CBT is referenced in 1MB blocks (I think) that actual free guest OS blocks aren't filling an entire CBT block so Veeam has to copy it.
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