VBR 9.5 - REFS

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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ksl28 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:54 am

Hello,

I have one more question, regarding VBR 9.0 and W2016 with ReFS.
We are planning on deploying Veeam within days, and since VBR 9.5 is just around the corner, we wanted to install VBR 9.0 on a Windows Server 2016 host.
When VBR 9.5 is released, we should be able to just upgrade the VBR 9.0 to 9.5, and therefor dont have to reinstall the physical host.

When installing VBR 9.0 on W2016, we are planning to format the iSCSI luns as ReFS from the beginning - but is this supported in VBR 9.0?
If it is supported, will VBR 9.5 automatically use the new features in ReFS, to speed up the process and do consistency check?


Thanks in advance! :)
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby v.Eremin » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:58 am

VB&R 9.0 doesn't support Windows Server 2016, meaning it cannot backup VMs running Windows Server 2016, it cannot backup VMs running on Windows Server 2016, and it cannot be installed on top of it. Thanks.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby PTide » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:19 pm

Ashley,

Thanks for the detailed explanation! Please keep in mind that in order to leverage ReFS capabilities when using a CIFS share repository you'll need to assign roles of mount host and gateway server to windows 2016 machine (not necessarily the same that hosts the share).

Thanks
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:26 pm

andyg wrote:Nice Post, we have similar hardware space but use ZFS on Linux though, so I'm curious to see what you think of Win 2016 and ReFS as a replacement to ZFS. (do you have a blog or any guides you follow to get your ZFS setup?)


The reason we didn't go for ZFS on Linux is that its not properly supported by Napp-it. As we aren't Solaris experts we chose to manage our ZFS layer largely by webui through the napp-it interface.
Our primary storage is coming off an IBM DS Fibre channel storage unit - we are switching about 70TB of primary storage to a Nimble all Flash array within the next month - at this stage the hyper converged setups were deemed to be too risky for us - Windows 2016 only went RTM recently (despite us having some hyper converged units running storage spaces direct for some time on technical preview)..

For a single node backup/management host, IMHO win2016 and ReFS doesn't cut the mustard due to lack of striping across pool sets and restrictions about the use of SSD acceleration and lack of global hot spares. So unless you have a 4 node hyper converged infrastructure running just for backups, the main benefit of using Re-FS on top of ZFS is that we get maximum performance and capacity on the spindles with the benefits of application aware de-dupe in Server 2016 that is coming in Veeam 9.5. End result is that our backup and management layer costs can be kept down to the best bang for the buck.

However for a multi node hyper converged solution for primary storage I'd run 2016 with storage spaces direct in preference over other solutions right now if we were a hyperv shop (but we are a vmware shop currently and are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future particularly with the shift to core licensing model of Data Centre Edition).

The beauty of using an architecture like we have is that we are currently exposing the old CIFS share to the Re-FS VM, and copying the old backup files from there and seeding the new Re-FS file system, so that we can carry on the backups where they left off and switch over without an issue to our new architecture. When 9.5 comes along we'll just enable the check box that says Re-FS file system and we'll start getting the speed up performances promised, but in the mean time we'll be hopefully getting the de-dupe benefits as the ReFS system is being seeded.

By continuing to use ZFS under the hood we are also protecting against things like bit rot in a more proven way as only time will tell as to the reliability of Re-FS.

I look after a large dev shop over here, so we have a fair amount of flexibility - our set up really just comes from a 100% virtualised approach (including vcentre and all Veeam components) and lots of experimentation and reading! so we make it all up as we go along ;-)
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:11 am

ashleyw wrote:When 9.5 comes along we'll just enable the check box that says Re-FS file system and we'll start getting the speed up performances promised, but in the mean time we'll be hopefully getting the de-dupe benefits as the ReFS system is being seeded.

Just be aware that it doesn't exactly work like that. There's not just a "check box that says ReFS" and there's actually no supported method for an in-place upgrade of an existing repository that was created without fast clone support to one that does support fast clone. You have to create a new repository that will be automatically detected as ReFS and also configured with the correct cluster size (4K or 64K). Even if you copy the existing backups into the new repo and import them, then map them to jobs (or just recreate the new repo in the same place as the old one), you still won't get any of the ReFS improvements until new full backups are created, either active or old-style synthetic, so that the new VBK files are properly block aligned with the filesystem.

Also, there's not de-deup benefits from ReFS. I guess you can somewhat consider using block clone as de-dupe if you're keeping multiple synthetic fulls or GFS points, but since versions prior to 9.5 didn't support block clone, there's no space-savings benefits with ReFS for backups created prior to 9.5 and even with 9.5 the benefits can only exist in the scenario that the repo was recognized as ReFS at repository creation time.

Perhaps you were already aware of all of that, but I just wanted to make sure that any others who read this were clear that it's not quite as simple a just a checkbox to migrate existing backups/repositories and get all the goodness, there's a little more work involved.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:04 am

tsightler wrote:Perhaps you were already aware of all of that, but I just wanted to make sure that any others who read this were clear that it's not quite as simple a just a checkbox to migrate existing backups/repositories and get all the goodness, there's a little more work involved.

thanks very much for the insightful information Tom, I was not aware of that as I haven't seen any of the release notes detailing that level of detail.
It looks like we just need to get out mits on 9.5 to feel the Veeam love! (please can someone send it to me ;-).
Its a pain there isn't a way of importing/migrating existing backups though as that may present a challenge for most deployments due to lack of spare space (I think we can work around that though in our case).
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:45 am

I think for most people the extra space will be needed anyway as the only way get to ReFS 3.1 is to reformat (there's no upgrade from NTFS or previous ReFS versions) so they'll either have to start with a new repo (easy way), or have some temporary place to copy off all of their backups, reformat, recreate the repo so that it can be recognized as ReFS, copy all the backups back to new repo, rescan and remap existing backups. With the latter option they still won't get the benefits until the next synthetic or active full, because the old backups won't be block aligned.

Most likely there aren't very many people with backup repos that are already on Windows 2016, especially since it's not a supported platform for running v9.0, so trying to upgrade an existing repo with backups shouldn't really be an issue.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby nmdange » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:24 am

When you say synthetic full, would that just be the next backup if you're doing forward-forever incremental?
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby tsightler » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:34 am

nmdange wrote:When you say synthetic full, would that just be the next backup if you're doing forward-forever incremental?


No, the merge for a forever forward does not recreate the VBK, it only merges blocks from the oldest VIB into the already existing VBK. It needs to be an operation that creates a new VBK so that the blocks are aligned with the ReFS cluster, thus it has to be a synthetic full or active full backup. In theory, I'd guess a maintenance operation of defragment and compact should work as well since that process also creates a new VBK and then discards the old one, but someone else will have to confirm as I haven't tested that actual scenario.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby ashleyw » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:41 am

I'll gladly help to test if someone would give me the secret handshake on acquiring the 9.5 beta/RTM.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby adapterer » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:03 am 1 person likes this post

Well you can colour me impressed.. initial testing below :). Synthetic full creation is very fast too.

Image

Something that worries me though is long term retention.. given that these are all synthetic backups, it does seem to create somewhat of a house-of-cards scenario, given that a some corrupt blocks in the original full would render all fulls corrupt, if I've got this right? What can be done to alleviate this? (Short of snapshots/replication). Is that where Storage Spaces comes in?
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby Mike Resseler » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:12 am

Nice numbers! Love it :-)

There is indeed the risk of corruption / bit rot / ... Storage Spaces Direct (S2D) comes into play here because through the integrity streams being enabled ReFS can detect this and when you use it on S2D it can also correct it. It can't correct it on a ReFS volume alone though. But important is that we are working with backups, so the alternative is the 3-2-1 rule! If this is your first copy of your data, you can use BCJ and store the information on a different medium after that (cloud connect / tape / cheap JBOD on a separate site and so on...).

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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby dellock6 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:06 am

Quick correction, you can use integrity streams also on regular storage spaces, as long as you use mirror or parity protection.
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby hoFFy » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:09 am

v.Eremin wrote:VB&R 9.0 doesn't support Windows Server 2016, meaning it cannot backup VMs running Windows Server 2016, it cannot backup VMs running on Windows Server 2016, and it cannot be installed on top of it. Thanks.

That's not correct. You should say it isn't supported :wink:
I already installed a new B&R 9.0 server with Server 2016 and a ReFS volume as the main backup repository 8)
Now I'm waiting every day for the release of 9.5 to upgrade B&R
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Re: VBR 9.5 - REFS

Veeam Logoby Mike Resseler » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:12 am

Sebastian,

What do you mean exactly? You installed B&R on a 2012 R2 server and connect a Backup repository that is located on a 2016 server to it?
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