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AGGFanatic
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Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Hello!

We are designing a backup strategy with the use of Veeam and BUE together.
We have installed Veeam 6.1 and BackupExec 2012 on the same VM (server 2008 r2).

Our requirements are:

- Veeam to backup VMs (best method, incremental or reversed or something else?)
- BackupExec to archive images to tape repository
- Longest retention possible on disk (7GB NAS)
- Restore from tape (not required to use multiple tapes eg. 20 tapes - less the better)

Our questions are:

1. What is the best method of backing up VMs with the use of BUE for archiving without using up too much disk space?
2. What is the best method to archive images to tape, reversed? (only backup the full backup image?)?
3. How do we rotate our tapes? We need to keep the tapes as far as 6months to a year.

Please assist and advise.

Thanks.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by foggy »

Hello, Adam!
AGGFanatic wrote:1. What is the best method of backing up VMs with the use of BUE for archiving without using up too much disk space?
AGGFanatic wrote:2. What is the best method to archive images to tape, reversed? (only backup the full backup image?)?
Using reverse incremental mode allows to have more restore points on disk of the same size than with forward incremental as you have to store only one full backup at each moment in time. However, forward incremental mode is more suitable for tape archiving as you move only incremental changes, not the full backup file, which takes less time and requires less tape. So its up to you do decide what is your major concern: disk space or tape space and time of backup.
AGGFanatic wrote:3. How do we rotate our tapes? We need to keep the tapes as far as 6months to a year.
There are no specific considerations regarding tape rotation, you can continue using the strategy you used to have with your previous backup solution.

Thanks!

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Hi Foggy,

Thanks for the reply.

We have successfully implemented Veeam 6.1 and BUE2012. We also configured a post-command to use BUE to replicate the Veeam files to tape. At the moment, we are using Reversed incremental - works ok but takes forever to copy the file across.

I understand that forward incremental is ideal for tape archiving, but I still dont really understand the concept behind it. If we had 4 full backup files, and 12 incremental files, would it make more sense to use reversed as opposed to forward? And also it would make more sense if we need to restore, we could just use the full backup to restore.

From a DR point of view, if the building burns down, to restore from tape, we would need a lot of time.

I need to understand how we archive forward incremental and also in the event of full restore?

Cheers.

foggy
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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by foggy »

Yes, reversed incremental mode does provides a bit faster restore but, as you said, offloading to tape takes forever. Forward incremental will generally take much less time to offload just small incremental files but restore times will not increase that much - you will need to copy the last full backup with a handful of subsequent incrementals from the tape plus some overhead for applying those incrementals (vs copying the full backup only in case of reversed incremental mode).

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by dellock6 »

In this case, you can use transforms to create a full backup file from the last set and convert your forward incremental in a reverse one. If you schedule transform after BE has offloaded files to tape, you can take advantages of both. Be careful about IOPS load required in order to run transforms!

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AGGFanatic
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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Hi Guys,

You've lost me there. If we use forward incremental, and offload to tape, wouldnt this be a longer process like you said because it needs to backup full backup and incrementals as opposed to reversed?
I still dont understand why forward incremental is faster to offload?

Also, we are backing up 3TB of data to tape, and this will need to be spanned to multiple tapes (luckily we have a library which can accommodate this). Hence, backing up using reversed makes more sense then forward as forward you need to copy the last backup file and the incrementals which are much bigger.

Because we have 3TB files, this takes more than 24 hours. I'm sure there's a better way to backup using veeam and offload using BUE.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hello,
Check this out, it might help you; http://dailyvmtech.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... exec-2010/

Just want to add a very good point about the Synthetic Backup.. Consider your Storage I/O speed if you want to go with Synthetic, if are backing up an Exchange with vRDM for instance and the Exchange has 1.6 TB of data… and you do a Synthetic Backup… Remember this; Does your Repository SAN Storage can handle the I/O constrains that will be generated by Veeam? If the SAN Storage configured as Raid 5 to save space and it’s a cheap NAS or iSCSI with Near-Line SAS disk for example… I doubt Veeam can transform all the .VRB files to be injected to .VBK file and remember the impact the will cause on the VM/Application.

foggy
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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by foggy »

AGGFanatic wrote:You've lost me there. If we use forward incremental, and offload to tape, wouldnt this be a longer process like you said because it needs to backup full backup and incrementals as opposed to reversed?
I still dont understand why forward incremental is faster to offload?
You do not need to offload all the files daily, just the latest increment. With forward incremental, the daily increment is typically small (except the days when the full backup is created), while for reversed incremental the last backup is always full.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

he should keep in mind that if he offloads the Daily .VIBs file to tape, restoring only the VIBs file without complete chain of VBK+VDM the configuration file, not use of the VIB file.
In that case he should refer to the latest full backup that runs as COPY, this backup will include the VBK file and subsequent VIBs file.. And this depends on the retention period on Disk and Retention period on tape.

Thanks,
Hussain

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

foggy wrote: You do not need to offload all the files daily, just the latest increment. With forward incremental, the daily increment is typically small (except the days when the full backup is created), while for reversed incremental the last backup is always full.
I'm not too sure what you mean, but are you saying that if we use forward incremental and backup the full on the weekend for example, and then incremental on the week days, and only offload the latest incremental? What happens when we need to restore? We cant restore using one full and skip to the latest incremental, the chain will be broken.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hello,
Configure the Symantec Job for the Weekly or Mothly Full as Copy it will copy the entire directory for each job. This copy job will discard the Rest Archive Bit feature and you will get the entire Chain of your Backup Full Weekly+Daily+Full+3Days Daily... and it depends on your retention period for how many days the VBK+VIBs file remain on disk.

Thanks,

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by Cokovic »

AGGFanatic wrote: I'm not too sure what you mean, but are you saying that if we use forward incremental and backup the full on the weekend for example, and then incremental on the week days, and only offload the latest incremental? What happens when we need to restore? We cant restore using one full and skip to the latest incremental, the chain will be broken.
Thats right. In case of a forward incremental you are going to backup first the full file and then on week days only the newly created incremental. In case of a restore you have first to recover the full file and then any incremental up to the day you need the restore point from. As you stated you cant skip to the latest incremental as you would brake the chain.

habibalby
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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hi Once again,

If your Veeam Backup Jobs configured as Active Full on Friday and the Job runs as Incremental from Sunday to Thursday and the Retention Period on the Backup Job configured as :
Restore Points to keep on Disk = 5
And VM Retention;
Deleted VMs Data Retention Period =5

I don't know what is your retention period but, The above is my configuration and it means;
Full Active Backup on Friday
.VBK
Sunday .VIB
Monday .VIB
Tuesday .VIB
Wednesday .VIB
Thursday .VIB

Another Full Active on
Friday .VBK
Saturday --------------------------------------> If your Backup Exec "Job" configured as Copy it will includes 1 Friday VBK and subsequent VIB Chain and 1 Friday VBK File all of them on tape. If you want to restore any day, from past 1 week, you can refer to your Saturday Full Copy Job without going to the daily Symantec Incremental Jobs of VIBs files.
Image

Sunday .VIB
Monday .VIB
Tuseday .VIB
Wednesday .VIB ------------------> CheckDate() Value: This Value is your Retention Period on Disk. On Wednesday, it will delete all the previous chain backup VBK and subsequent VIBs files and you will be left only with 1 VBK and it's subsequent VIBs chain files.
Image

Image


If your Symantec Backup Job configured as Weekly Full Copy, yes it will take longer,, but all your backup files are available on tape and if your want some of your data before your reach your Retention Period CheckDate() value, then you can restore directly from Disk without going back to your tapes.

Thanks,

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hi,

if you want to reduce the time that Symantec it takes to copy everything to the Tapes, you can run it on Thursday after all your Veeam Jobs finished, you can start the Symantec Job Backup as COPY. This will includes Veeam Files;
Friday Full .VBK
Sunday Incr .VIB
Monday Incr .VIB
Tuesday Incr .VIB
Wednesday Incr .VIB
Thursday Incr .VIB
You will exclude the second Friday Full VBK File and the Second Friday Full Backup it will be included in next Thursday where you will run Full Backup as Copy again :)

Hope it helps;
Thanks,

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by cffit »

I realize the vbm file is kind of a data file that keeps track of what is what, but if you do a VEEAM full backup on the weekend and incremental backups on the weekdays, if you wanted to restore to Tuesday you'd need the weekend full backup and Monday and Tuesday's incrementals, but would you just need Tuesday's vbm file? Or would you need the vbm file from the full backup and each incremental backup in order to restore?

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by Gostev »

VBM is not mandatory for restore. It is a new file we have added in v6 to speed up certain operations, but actual backup file remained unchanged, and you can restore from any continuous VBK+VIB/VRB chain alone as before.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Thanks for the info guys.

But the problem we have is that our data is growing rapidly fast. Its grown up to 2TB now.
At the moment, if we were to do forward incremental, we get about 1TB full and about 100GB incremental.
The full backup will span over 2 tapes, and hopefully we are able to put 500GB of daily incremental onto one tape.

If we do Friday full and Sun - Thurs incremental (thats around 1.5TB) what happens if we reach over its tape capacity? We try not do span across too many tapes, restore would be a pain.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

@habibalby

Just a quick question with your setup, what if I want to keep my images on disk for 30 days? Does that mean that it will copy all my VIB files within 30 days to tape?

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hi AGGFanatic,
You can keep your backup files on disk for 30 Days, just configure your retention period for 30 Days. Off course, if you will run a backup against your Repository Drives and the Repository contains backup files of 30 Days, all these files will be included in your Tape Backups, unless you amend the backup selection and you select particular period to be backed up to tapes.

Thanks,

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

AGGFanatic wrote:Thanks for the info guys.

But the problem we have is that our data is growing rapidly fast. Its grown up to 2TB now.
At the moment, if we were to do forward incremental, we get about 1TB full and about 100GB incremental.
The full backup will span over 2 tapes, and hopefully we are able to put 500GB of daily incremental onto one tape.

If we do Friday full and Sun - Thurs incremental (thats around 1.5TB) what happens if we reach over its tape capacity? We try not do span across too many tapes, restore would be a pain.
For sure if your tapes reached its capacity either you should have a free tapes allocated in the Free Pool and ready to be used by any job within your Backup Software. My data reached 3.7 TB and I'm doing the backup over 12 hours, but I'm dumping all past 1 week into the tapes.. So, I don't have to go to my daily incremental backups to retrieve only single VIB file from the daily backup "Rather, I have entire 1 Week of Backup in 2 Tapes" and I can retrieve whatever I want from these 2 tapes.

Doing the daily incremental for VIBs file it's a waste of time and effort, but for worse case scenarios Backup is Available when needed :)

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Thanks for that.

By the way, how is your backup setup? If you have over 3TB, how do you setup your Veeam and then offload to tapes?
DO you mind sharing?

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hello,
Here's how my setup, I have 4 TB provisioned from IBM DS3512 to the Repository Server, and Symantec backup agent installed on the Repository server to backup the Directories.

Image

A result of this:

Symantec Full on Tape Friday - Next Week Thursday Backup Chain.
Image

Veeam Full Backup on Tapes;
Image

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Thanks for that, what is your retention period? If its 5 days, what happens if the user requires file restore 2 weeks ago? Do you need to use your tape?

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

Hello,
Off curse I have to use my tapes since my retention period on disk "Delete VMs on Disk=5" And two weeks of data backed up with Symantec. But, if i have bigger storage to keep backup on disk, I would increase the retention period.

Thanks,

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

Ok, how do I only back up the last week in BUE? I have set the retention to 30 days, but want to only offload the recent 7 days. Where is the setting for this? I cant seem to find it anywhere.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by zoltank »

AGGFanatic wrote:Hello!

We are designing a backup strategy with the use of Veeam and BUE together.
We have installed Veeam 6.1 and BackupExec 2012 on the same VM (server 2008 r2).

Our requirements are:

- Veeam to backup VMs (best method, incremental or reversed or something else?)
- BackupExec to archive images to tape repository
- Longest retention possible on disk (7GB NAS)
- Restore from tape (not required to use multiple tapes eg. 20 tapes - less the better)

Our questions are:

1. What is the best method of backing up VMs with the use of BUE for archiving without using up too much disk space?
2. What is the best method to archive images to tape, reversed? (only backup the full backup image?)?
3. How do we rotate our tapes? We need to keep the tapes as far as 6months to a year.

Please assist and advise.

Thanks.
Do you need to save multiple restore points onto tape, or is it just for DR where the latest restore point is all you need?

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by habibalby »

zoltank wrote:Do you need to save multiple restore points onto tape, or is it just for DR where the latest restore point is all you need?
The full backup chain is tied together, you can't have the latest restore point alone or the VBK + the last day of the Week and you ignore the reset.. If you are shipping your backup images to DR and you want to minimize the size of Veeam Images, then set the retention period as 1 and every time the job will runs it will delete the previous backup and you will have the latest backup..

Hope it helps..

Thanks,

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by AGGFanatic »

zoltank wrote:Do you need to save multiple restore points onto tape, or is it just for DR where the latest restore point is all you need?
Yes its just for DR, the latest restore point.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by brupnick »

I struggled with similar requirements here as well. There were really no good solutions for getting the VBR files to tape, so we ended up getting a second NAS device for our DR site and replicating the backup files using rsync and a Powershell script that I wrote. We still have a long term tape requirement, but that's only for our full backups which run once a month. So my setup is as follows:
  • - First Friday (daily backups) and Saturday (weekly backups) of the month, run active fulls. Replicate .vbk files to DR site and write to tape via BE2010R3
    - Monday through Friday, run traditional incrementals for daily backups (results in 20-25 restore points). Replicate .vib files to DR site
    - Saturday, run traditional incrementals for weekly backups (results in 4-5 restore points). Replicate .vib files to DR site
    - Lather, rinse, repeat.
I'm able to keep 30-60 days on disk at each site. If something from 60+ days is required, I restore the .vbk from tape, import in to VBR and restore what is necessary.

I had some extra HDDs on the shelf, so I was able to put them in an old HP StorageWorks SCSI chassis and get an extra 5 TB of usable space. I have a job called "Frequent VMs" that backs up just that - one DC from each domain, mail server, file server, proxy - the servers that are most requested. This job runs on the first Sunday of the month and I'm able to keep 6 months worth of data on disk at my main location. This is strictly for convenience because most of my restore requests are for files on the same 3 servers. This allows me to minimize what I need to restore from tape, even if it's outside of the 30-60 days of what is replicated between my two sites.

The fact that tapes need to be involved means that it's going to be a messier solution than if you just had a ton of disk at two sites. Hope this helps.

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Re: Veeam and BUE integration

Post by brupnick »

I should add that I assumed you're writing to tape for DR/archival purposes, since why else would you be using tape, especially if you don't have to. If that's not the case, please disregard my previous post.
If you're using VBR, then you obviously like things simple, so maybe using tapes adds enough complexity/frustration to keep you humble and remind you of where you came from. :)

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