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kylecpcs
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ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by kylecpcs » 1 person likes this post

I tried to call support, but it requires a case number. I can't create a case under our propartner portal because we don't personally have active licenses. What is the process here, and why is it so difficult to simply place a call?
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Mildur » 1 person likes this post

Hi Kyle

Your customer needs to login as the license administrator and make your account a case administrator:
https://www.veeam.com/kb2211

After that, you are able to open support cases for your customers licenses.

Best,
Fabian
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by kylecpcs » 2 people like this post

Might I suggest there needs to be a better/easier way to do this that does not require the customer to do anything. We are an MSP and our clients like everything to be turn-key, and having to tell them to do something before we can help them is a non-starter sometimes. There should be a number for propartners where we can call without a case, give a license key, and open a ticket from there.

It USED to be this way for the past decade....why has it changed? It's only making it harder for partners to support our clients.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Mildur »

This forum is run by product management and not our support team. But I will forward your concerns to our support management.

For now, please follow the process documented in the kb article to assign the case admin.

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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Regnor » 1 person likes this post

As a Veeam Partner you can request the support access centrally from the Partner portal. This way your customer gets an email request to approve it.
https://www.veeam.com/de/kb2836
Normally when deploying a new backup environment, we ask customers to give us access during the setup. They need a Veeam account anyway, so it's not much work to enable the case administrator. And that way you can open a support case as soon as it's required.

I also think the requirement to open a case via web is a good thing. Providing all necessary contact and case details takes time via phone and is error-prone. And you would still need to upload the Veeam logs afterwards; which you wouldnt be able to if you're not a case administrator.
If you have an urgent or a complicated case, provide all details via web and then phone in.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Andreas Neufert »

I think customers can give license administration privileges to partners. Let the customer open a support ticket and ask for it.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Andreas Neufert »

Here are the details: https://www.veeam.com/kb2211
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Mildur »

@Regnor
Thanks, I wasn't aware about that option :)
Using it in the onboarding process for a new customer is a good idea.

Best,
Fabian
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Gostev »

kylecpcs wrote: Dec 08, 2022 10:24 pmMight I suggest there needs to be a better/easier way to do this that does not require the customer to do anything. We are an MSP and our clients like everything to be turn-key, and having to tell them to do something before we can help them is a non-starter sometimes. There should be a number for propartners where we can call without a case, give a license key, and open a ticket from there.

It USED to be this way for the past decade....why has it changed? It's only making it harder for partners to support our clients.
If you're an MSP then your clients should not be using end-user product licenses to start with? This restriction (2.0b Prohibited Use) has been in Veeam EULA through the entire history of Veeam. And I can see how violating EULA may cause all sorts of issues with different processes which are designed according to EULA... but they are really "self-inflicted" in this case.

As an MSP providing managed service, your clients must be using rental licenses owned by you. And with this approach, as the license owner, you're automatically a license admin, a support case admin etc.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by kylecpcs » 1 person likes this post

We are not the MSP for their Veeam instances, just a Veeam partner overall, and doing a datacenter refresh project for the client, which involves Veeam.

I was able to get the client info, log in as them, and create the ticket. Still don't like the overall process tho, ;-)
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by mweissen13 »

I fully agree wich kylecpcs on this. Formely one would just enter the customer's support ID and would be able to create a ticket for the customer.
I can understand this may be a problem because then you could open a support ticket for any customer for which you know the support ID.
But why not make the process easier by just sending the customer an email that a case has been opened and he has to approve that by clicking on a link.
We've had this pain many times. Often the customer doesn't even know that he has a Veeam account. Or their former IT "pro" just took the short route and installed his own license ;-)
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Regnor »

But why not make the process easier by just sending the customer an email that a case has been opened and he has to approve that by clicking on a link.
That is what's happing, if you request the case administrator permission via the Partner Portal; the customer does get an approval email.
Only disadvantage is, that you can only do this for licenses which were sold by you as a Partner.

If the customer doesn't know his Veeam account, then just check which email address is included in the license file.
You'll be able to reset the password or create an account for that address.
And if they no longer have access, they can open a license case with a different Veeam account.
Even you as a partner can do that, as you can leave out the support ID.

And if that doesn't work or you need support immediately, this is what the Partner Portal recommends:
Lastly, if you are in a situation where you are unable to move forward with a support case and require immediate assistance, please login to our Support Portal and leverage the “Talk to Manager” option. This is tool that you can leverage to ensure you get immediate assistance for support cases related to the previously mentioned steps or otherwise.

Any feedback is always appreciated and will be taken into consideration. Please contact your Veeam Partner Representative if you have any questions or concerns.
But yeah that's all more complicated then just entering any support ID and being able to open a case.
So better make sure that customers do have access to their account and give you the case permissions before you need them.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by AlexHeylin » 1 person likes this post

Gostev wrote: Dec 09, 2022 12:56 pm If you're an MSP then your clients should not be using end-user product licenses to start with? This restriction (2.0b Prohibited Use) has been in Veeam EULA through the entire history of Veeam. And I can see how violating EULA may cause all sorts of issues with different processes which are designed according to EULA... but they are really "self-inflicted" in this case.

As an MSP providing managed service, your clients must be using rental licenses owned by you. And with this approach, as the license owner, you're automatically a license admin, a support case admin etc.
Hi Gostev,
Sorry but I think that statement is CRAZY! You're saying that if an MSP onboards a client where the client owns ££,£££ of perpetual Veeam licenses that Veeam expects the client to junk all that investment in licenses and rent the same licenses again from the MSP?! :shock:
Someone in the license team is out of their mind if they think that's reasonable, or is going to happen.

We only sell Veeam at all because we supplied a perpetual license to our largest customer years ago. If we'd adhered to this license requirement, we'd have never sold that product, never sold any more licenses, never become a VCSP, and would not be using Veeam for virtually every customer we have. Is that what Veeam want - to ensure they don't acquire customers, and that MSPs are punished / prevented from selling perpetual license to customers (who may insist on perpetual, not monthly rental)?

I suggest that while rental license from an MSP who is a VCSP is ONE way to acquire licensing, it certainly should not be the only way when there's an MSP involved. For a start - most MSPs who have customer(s) using Veeam will not be VCSP, and have no interest in becoming one. What you just said is "If a customer hires an MSP, we expect them to junk all their investment in Veeam licenses and buy something else - possibly from the MSP, and quite likely not Veeam."

Apart from anything else, the price tiering (server / VM / workstation) is completely different between VUL and Rental. Then there's that perpetual legacy customers are being shafted by Veeam enforcing conversion to VUL with inadequate "buy-back" for their "unlimited VM" socket-based licenses. Trying to insist that just because there's an MSP in play ONLY one license model can be used, even if the MSP can't support it - appears to be "highly suboptimal, and detached from reality" and likely to become a real problem in that either the client has to pay again for something they've already paid a LOT of money for - or the MSP can't perform backup management which is likely to be a core part of their contract.

If Veeam are being paid for licensing - why are they so obsessed that if an MSP is involved it MUST be via the VCSP model which causes a number of problems as I've outlined above?
You're getting paid - why do you care who's driving the console, and how their salary gets paid?

What exactly is Veeam's problem with an MSP managing the backups for a client who's had a perpetual Veeam license since way before the MSP got involved?

We've run into the exact issue in the OP, for exactly the same reason. We've raised this issue several times and this is the first time anyone at Veeam has said that this is prohibited use.

Off the back of this discussion, it seems Veeam want us to inform our largest customer that Veeam has just effectively invalidated all their perpetual VBR licensing? After that bit of news, the client is almost certain to refuse to buy any Veeam licenses in future - from us or anyone else, as rental or perpetual.
Obviously this is the situation Veeam wanted to create... :(

Can anyone recommend a good backup software supplier that doesn't punish customers for hiring an MSP?
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Gostev »

No, I'm not saying anything like that.

What I'm saying is that any MSPs should not be operating in direct violation of the Veeam EULA (especially so in violation of the particular statement that has been there since our company's inception) and should strive to get into compliance. Otherwise, the inability to open a support case on the customer's behalf might become the smallest of their issues.

The scenario you outlined is hardly a unique one and I'm sure that our VCSP team already has the universal transition recipe for such cases. Whether it is the license migration, or simply providing an exception and allowing MSP to manage the particular customer's environment despite it being licensed with an end-user license (which I would expect would also involve registering an MSP with the corresponding license as the support case admin etc.)

But I've honestly have no idea how they actually approach this. But pretty sure they don't just live it hanging. Really I'm just flagging the obvious EULA violation here, knowing that our EULA serves as the basis for many well-established rules that in turn drive the backend systems workflows and also product licensing limitations.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by AlexHeylin » 1 person likes this post

I suggest that the EULA should not have pointless, and likely unenforceable things in it.
I further suggest that Veeam should not then use those pointless, and likely unenforceable things as reasons for making things unnecessarily difficult for real-world operations which from which Veeam benefits.

It's to everyone's benefit for a reseller / MSP (etc) to act on behalf of the customer in some cases like this. The reseller acts as first line support, and reduces the support load on Veeam. This also likely leads to faster resolution of issues - both those which result in a Veeam support case, and those where a Veeam support case is avoided. The customer gets better service as a result, and is happier with both the reseller and with Veeam. This drives customer retention for both the reseller and Veeam.
2.0 Prohibited Use. Without Veeam’s express prior written consent, You may not (directly or indirectly through any employee, contractor, consultant, agent or other representative):
(a) resell, transfer, share, or make the Software or Your License Keys available to any third party (including, without limitation, sharing License Keys on any website, forum or social media);
MSPs are not doing this.
(b) process third party data (as a service provider), provide commercial hosting or support services, sublicense, rent or lease, in whole or in part, the Software to another party, or otherwise use the Software on a service bureau basis, without purchasing a specific Veeam license to do so;
This seems to be worded in a "suboptimal" way. For example - an MSP might have no relationship with Veeam, so is not subject to the EULA. The client has licenses and is subject to EULA - but is not prohibited from contracting support services from the MSP and doing so does not breach EULA because the customer is not providing support services.

Arguably - even if the MSP has a relationship with Veeam - the EULA still may not apply because any EULAs which are in force between the MSP and Veeam do not apply if the MSP is acting for a customer who has their own licensing. As the customer is not providing commercial support services, the above is not met.

Where the MSP is providing the license as part of a BaaS offering, then the MSP is acting as a VCSP and should be using those licenses. No-one is suggesting that MSPs / VCSP should not be paying Veeam for licenses used to provide commercial services.

Where the client is paying the MSP to manage the client's backups then the EULA exists between client and Veeam and the client is not providing support services, but is contracting support services in from the MSP (who's not bound by the EULA in this case).

Your interpretation of this appears to even to prohibit a customer from using a contractor to manage their backups, where an employee would be allowed to - because the contractor would "provide commercial [...] support services".

Please can we have the SKU(s) for the "specific Veeam license" the MSP is supposed to buy to enable them to provide purely "support services" to customers with existing customer-owned licenses - without replacing the customer's licenses?

Why does Veeam object to the subject of the EULA providing "support services" for their software on a commercial basis?
This isn't a replacement for Veeam's support - this is in addition to Veeam's support. Veeam aren't going to manage a client's BC/DR solution, and should not be attempting to prohibit others from doing so.
(d) write or develop any derivative software or documentation or other software programs based upon the Software or Documentation;
A customer may not write down any documentation / notes on how to use the software?! Especially not if they've read the Veeam documentation?
If a customer makes a note on how to do a restore, they're in breach of the EULA?? :lol:
This is just getting silly! Are they allowed to make notes if there's a zombie apocalypse? https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridicu ... es-agreed/
(f) disclose, transfer or otherwise make available the results of any performance, capacity or functionality tests or any benchmark testing of the Software to any third party.
That's EXACTLY what a Veeam partner will need to do during a PoC. That's part of selling complex / large-scale solutions.
What license does the Veeam partner need to allow them to share PoC results with the customer / prospective-customer to close a sale?
I'm sure that our VCSP team already has the universal transition recipe for such cases
When we asked previously the available options were highly financially unappealing to all involved. They involved the customer scrapping their investment in their perpetual licenses and paying again for something they've already paid for.
But I've honestly have no idea how they actually approach this.
Unfortunately, we do. That's the problem. You seem to be saying there's no problem with the "official" way of doing this (despite saying you don't know what it is) - and I'm saying that's not our experience (and it seems likely it's not been the experience of the OP). If Veeam think every reseller / MSP is going to ask for written permission for the MSP to provide support services to non-rental Veeam customers, then that needs to be a streamlined routine process that's clearly documented. What's that process please? I need to request written permission to provide support to a whole bunch of customers, presumably individually...

I suggest that perhaps this situation is not a violation of the spirit of the EULA (and probably not even a violation of the letter of the EULA) - and that perhaps the process design at Veeam did not take this routine situation into account, but should have. The MSP model is one Veeam seems to repeatedly find challenging to understand / design for. Perhaps Veeam talking specifically to these MSP partners about their requirements and use cases during the design stage would assist everyone in future. Where processes are already in place and impractical to rework, an established and documented "workaround" for MSP-type use cases would save people from having situations like this.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Gostev » 2 people like this post

Alex, no offence but shouldn't you be reading the EULA before accepting it and starting to use the product (or deliver related services), as opposed to detailing how you disagree strongly with your interpretation of a bunch of "pointless" items after the fact? Not to mention I highly doubt any EULA items that have still survived 15 years of polish and customers' feedback are likely to be "pointless".

Logically speaking, if you have strong objections to some of the EULA items, then there are really only 3 approaches one could take? You either don't touch the product at all, or you clarify your interpretation of the concerning EULA items with your Veeam rep, or you work with the Veeam legal team to redline the EULA according to your specific requirements (which is not all that uncommon for large customers).

You don't instead engage in a heated debate with us, R&D guys... seriously :D R&D simply has no say over any of the concerns raised so far in this topic, whether by you or by previous posters, because they are and have always been outside of our area of responsibility! So again, I strongly suggest that you discuss any EULA or VCSP program related concerns you might have to our VCSP team directly. I'm sure they (most likely) already have the answers to all your questions above ready, even if you might not like them (but then again, no point in sharing the frustration with us the R&D folks). Or they will take your feedback to the legal team for further consideration and possible modification of the EULA, or they will take it to their management to perhaps change our "challenging MSP model" (as you put it) as a whole ;) and then modify the EULA according to the new program realities.

By the way, the Veeam Management feedback form (linked in the forum rules provided when you click New Topic) even has the dedicated "VCSP" category, if you prefer to share your concern directly with the responsible management team. This little hack allows you to bypass your sales rep altogether. Also, I do know for the fact that the VCSP program management has been hosting regular round tables with the top MSPs where "Veeam talking specifically to these MSP partners about their requirements and use cases during the design stage would assist everyone in future" for many years now.
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by AlexHeylin »

Hi Gostev,

Reading the EULA is all very well - but, as appears to be part of the case here, what the EULA writer means, what they wrote, and what the reader understands it to mean can be three separate things. I take your other points, but I think blaming the customer / their MSP for what a EULA says / means is probably not the way to go either. It could be interpreted as including "no Veeam customer may utilise an MSP". I'm fairly sure that's not what Veeam intended (at least I hope it's not!).

I'm only raising this because it was raised in this thread as a reason for something not to be possible in Veeam-land.

So we're all clear - no MSP is deliberately trying to operate in breach of EULA. They're trying to provide the services they've been contracted to provide to their customers, including customers who they've sold Veeam to, or who already had Veeam in place (including perpetual licenses). I don't think accusing MSPs of being the bad guys here for trying to support your customers well is a very collaborative or constructive way to go, especially if doing so requires reading the EULA with a certain view point in order to support it.

I'll restate that I think this entire line of discussion is because Veeam don't seem to understand the MSP business model very well, and apparently have issues with the MSP sometimes acting "as customer" and "as supplier" other times. Some MSPS do both for very legitimate reasons. In some cases an MSP is simply a means for the end customer to contract in skills they can't afford to maintain in-house - such as backup specialisms.

You made a blanket statement about license models and how you think they relate to MSPs and their customers. I'm just saying that I think you've got one view of how an MSP "should" work and it's only one of several cases which operate in reality and that all are just as valid, and Veeam is getting their money in all of them - so I really don't see why referencing the EULA and declaring that MSPs are breaching it is helpful to anyone.

Thanks
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by Gostev » 2 people like this post

Oh, Alex... you'd be surprised to know how many MSP are deliberately trying to operate in breach of EULA, for example by deploying Community Edition at their clients. I've lost count of the number of times that I (and other MSPs) had to point this out to peers on various communities, often to their complete surprise... just because they completely omitted reading the Veeam EULA when designing their business model, or simply decided to ignore it.

And that's just one example, I'd rather not share some other "creative" approaches of exploiting our Rental licensing which are quite popular these days despite being explicitly prohibited by EULA and Licensing Policy...
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Re: ProPartner...need to open a case for a client but can't

Post by AlexHeylin » 1 person likes this post

TBH Gostev - we were also using Community Edition until the change to the install / license acceptance screen made it clear that's not permitted. We did read the EULA beforehand - but (in our opinion) it did not make clear that such use was prohibited. Once it was clarified, we quickly pivoted to VCSP model for those clients, often covering the cost ourselves until we could renegotiate to get the client to pay the fees.

I think it's a mistake to assume that if people read the EULA that they understand it to mean what you think it means. They're often full of legalese and vague blanket terms which seems to have been included to deliberately obfuscate the true meaning, so the vendor can decide what they mean later if they don't like a use it's being used for. We're not discussing the Community License here though. We're talking about legitimate perpetual licenses owned by the end customer, which they may have already owned before the MSP came along, or which the MSP (as Veeam reseller) sold them for various reasons.

I hear your point - but this isn't a discussion about people illegally using Community license - it's about Veeam attempting to dictate a license model to end customers simply because there may be an MSP, or other forms of non-employed labour, involved. It's ridiculous for Veeam to demand that an end customer junks their expensive existing perpetual licenses and replaces them with rental licenses for the same product just because they choose to use non-employed labour at some point. There's also the issue the many times that non-employed labour may not want to / be able to supply rental licenses via VCSP - and there's certainly no reason for them to be forced to buy them in from another VCSP. This whole issue appears to be due to such a blanket term, and one specific interpretation of it which Veeam apparently build their support model around. To remind everyone - it's to Veeam's advantage to have clients using Veeam's products, so penalising them (or their non-employed labour) for it is a great way to lose clients and annoy resellers / VCSPs / MSPs. Everyone in this thread has just been trying to act in everyone's best interests. Veeam seem to have decided to dictate a specific model - and we're saying that model can be unhelpful and ignore reality.
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