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azuegler
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Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by azuegler »

Hi all,

I just upgraded to Version 6.1 and wanted to know if there is some solution implemented for the problem concerning backup of vCenter with application-aware image processing and VSS?

I know the workaround from KB articel KB1051 (http://www.veeam.com/KB1051), but I also know the problems with this workaround and vMotion.

I also know that there is an unsopported HowTo to fix the job, if it fails because of vMotion (http://forums.veeam.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 01&start=0), but I think this is very awkward.

Best regards,
Andreas

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Gostev »

Hi Andreas, no changes there. I would include this feature into the What's New document for sure :wink: the best workaround currently is to exclude the VM with SQL server used by vCenter from application-aware processing (in the advanced settings on the same wizard page). Thanks!

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Are there any plans to fix this issue?

By disabling application Aware, are we just getting crash consistent versions of the DB then?

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Gostev »

Yes, and in fact we have just completed significant research effort around this. It appears that the only reasonable way to address this is disabling VSS processing of vCenter configuration database, so yes essentially this will mean crash-consistent backup state of this specific database. However, since SQL is built to handle crashes without any data loss, this should not cause any problems. Thanks!

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by tfloor »

What is the best method
1. Disable application awareness for the sql server, or.
2. Put the vcenter sql server on a seperate host and add ht ehost by ip adress to veeam, and backup with VSS.

for option 2:
I can choose one of the option but i'm now backup with a folder hierarchy, from VM's and Templates. So how do i know that the vm is backupped without using vcenter, but using the seperate host?

I have placed my sql server and vcenter server on a seperate host/cluster as the moment.

Is it automatic first trying to use the host and then vcenter? or do i need to do nothing and is all of this not the case.
I don't understand it anymore at the moment.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by foggy »

Tristan, it's always better to use application-aware image processing to backup such highly transactional VMs as SQL Server.

If you decide to go with this option, the best way would be to create a separate job for the vCenter VM, add this VM via standalone host IP address and exclude it from all other jobs that use folder hierarchy (you can add this VM in exclusions at the Virtual Machines step of the job wizard).

In case of crash-consistent backups, you can just disable application-aware processing for this particular VM in the advanced settings on the Guest Processing step of the wizard. You can also use SureBackup to verify the recovery from such backup to be sure that everything is working as it should.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by tfloor »

Thanks.

I Will go to add the host separate by ip. And exclude it from the other backup jobs.
Then indeed I can select the vm's in the list from the new separate host. So that veeam knows how to deal with that vm's.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by tfloor »

Is it neccesary to add the host by ip or is dns also ok?
I have a secondary dns zone on my vcenter server, in case my dns servers are down (usually normal when you need to restore everything) :).

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

Actually it depends, if you have this host added to vCenter Server using its FQDN, then specifying IP address is the only way of adding this host to the Veeam backup console, otherwise there will be a duplicated names conflict in the SQL database.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by tfloor »

Vitaliy S. wrote:Actually it depends, if you have this host added to vCenter Server using its FQDN, then specifying IP address is the only way of adding this host to the Veeam backup console, otherwise there will be a duplicated names conflict in the SQL database.

FQDN within vCenter
and added the seperate host with only hostname

:)

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SQL Server Replication job fails with "Object not found"

Post by Michael_6835 »

[merged]

Greetings All:
My Environment:
2 ESX 4.1 U1 hosts in a HA Cluster.
1 Virtual VCenter
Veeam running on standalone Backup Server pointing to local SQL Express Veeam DB.
ISCSI San
SQL Server VM.


The issue: If VM changes host, VM Backup and Replication job fails with "Object not found"

I have multiple backup jobs that backup different VMs, I have no issues with those jobs because in the VM selection, I am choosing the VM underneath the VCenter Tree.

However for my SQL server, I can not go through VCenter, I must specify the ESX host directly via IP and choose the VM from there. (Not sure why, since Veeam server and DB are separate, unless the VSS freezing stops communications, so VCenter can't get to VCDB)

Doing some reading though previous posts, I understand that each VM has a unique ID and when it's moved between host, this ID is changed...
The issue I'm hoping to receive help with is Veeam understanding or at least "updating" the current job with the new ID. What happens now is the job fails,
I come in see the failed job, realized "oh that's right I have to tell Veeam about the "move"

Here is the issue, when I update the job, Veeam makes me pull the entire VM again. So for Backup, I have to pull the entire VM and similar for replication, I need to redo the whole thing. So now what would normally be a 5-10 minute incremental job, is essentially 5-6 times that as it goes through backs the entire thing up. I'm currently replicating locally, but I'd also like to replicate this VM across the WAN to a DR site. Having to pull the entire image because the Veeam doesn't let me reassign the job, is terribly inconvenient.

All solutions in previous posts instruct users to just use VCenter, to my understanding, in this case, I can't.
Now in practice, I don't do alot of vMotioning (with 2 hosts) but from time to time I do updates to (updates, memory adds, etc.) each host.

Is there a solution that one can think of that might work in my scenario? That is, not have me have to re-pull the entire backup or replication again?
What about a feature in Veeam that allowed you to "reassign" the VM within the job but use the same "backup" or "replica"

Right now it's a minor pain, because I am doing things locally, but I can see it becoming an issue down the road.
Many thanks

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

Hi Michael,

There is an existing discussion on the PowerShell community forums which has a script that could help you with your current challenges. I don't know whether it works with V&R v6.1 or not, but at least it is worth trying: HOWTO: Backing up vCenter host issues

Thanks!

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Michael_6835 »

thanks for the reply, is my issue related to the Virtual Center database being on the SQL Server VM i'm trying to backup?

If thats the case, what about putting the VCDB on its own SQL Express DB on the VC itself?
Is that even supported?
That would solve the whole VCenter/Vmotion thing with the main SQL server no?

Would that mean I would need to treat the Vcenter VM as I do my current SQL, that is specify the VM by host IP?
If that's the case, that might be an acceptable work around for me. I don't Vmotion that much, and of more importance to me is the SQL server and being able to have everything situated.
VCenter is obviously important, but I think I could survive with relocated that every so often.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

Michael_6835 wrote:If thats the case, what about putting the VCDB on its own SQL Express DB on the VC itself?
Is that even supported?
Yes, it is supported. My lab used to run this way, then I migrated my vCenter Server to a Hyper-V host. :D
Michael_6835 wrote:That would solve the whole VCenter/Vmotion thing with the main SQL server no?
Yes, if you move the vCenter Server database away from your main SQL Server, you would be able to back this VM like any other VM.
Michael_6835 wrote:Would that mean I would need to treat the Vcenter VM as I do my current SQL, that is specify the VM by host IP?
If that's the case, that might be an acceptable work around for me. I don't Vmotion that much, and of more importance to me is the SQL server and being able to have everything situated.
VCenter is obviously important, but I think I could survive with relocated that every so often.
Correct. BTW - you may want to consider using this option too:
Gostev wrote:Yes, and in fact we have just completed significant research effort around this. It appears that the only reasonable way to address this is disabling VSS processing of vCenter configuration database, so yes essentially this will mean crash-consistent backup state of this specific database. However, since SQL is built to handle crashes without any data loss, this should not cause any problems.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Michael_6835 »

Cool,
that sounds like a work around for me. With VCenter, if I disable VSS and accept the crash consistent database issue. I'm still getting my full backups of the VM, I can still use SQL tools to perform proper "full" backups of the Vcenter DB, this way if there is some issue I could just restore from backup?

Can you remind me again, what's the harm in not having VSS on with databases?
Basically, with VSS, the system stops all IO and flushes the changes to disk, then does the backup ?
without VSS, it does the backup regardless of I/O, so you could have inconsistent data, right?

Does this pose a risk to the Vcenter DB, could it somehow become "corrupted" .

Would that mean,we'd run the risk of losing the vcenter db? because all "good" backups would be old or prior to corruption?
or am i overthinking this one?
thanks

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

Michael_6835 wrote:I'm still getting my full backups of the VM, I can still use SQL tools to perform proper "full" backups of the Vcenter DB, this way if there is some issue I could just restore from backup?
Correct.
Michael_6835 wrote:Can you remind me again, what's the harm in not having VSS on with databases?
Basically, with VSS, the system stops all IO and flushes the changes to disk, then does the backup ?
without VSS, it does the backup regardless of I/O, so you could have inconsistent data, right?
Correct.
Michael_6835 wrote:Does this pose a risk to the Vcenter DB, could it somehow become "corrupted"
Would that mean,we'd run the risk of losing the vcenter db? because all "good" backups would be old or prior to corruption?
or am i overthinking this one?
Configure a SB job to eliminate any possibilities of not getting informed about "corrupted" backup, as only "application-aware image processing" can guarantee application consistency.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Disabling VSS on SQL server just doesn't give me that warm fuzzy feeling. Could Veeam intelligently exclude the vCenter Database only from VSS backup?

If not - what about this possible enhancement: (Be kind, I am going to make some assumptions on how Veeam works)

Going with idea of adding the SQL sever directly from the ESX host so we can use VSS. Now I had to vMotion the SQL server and the backup is now broken. I re-add the server to the job under the new ESX server but now a full backup is kicked off.

What if in the job setup you were able to change the "Source" of which to backup the VM from. With the theory that you could change the ESX host for the vMotioned SQL server (without removing the VM from the job and re-adding it) keeping the same ID in the backup job and not having to run a full because the backup job thinks its a new VM.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

With this approach you will keep the same ID for the VM in the backup job, but this will not retain the same ID for the VM which will be hosted on the new ESX(i) server.

Have you considered using a dedicated SQL Server for your vCenter Server as another possible workaround? In this case you would be able to backup your production SQL Server like any other VM.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Vitaliy S. wrote:With this approach you will keep the same ID for the VM in the backup job, but this will not retain the same ID for the VM which will be hosted on the new ESX(i) server.

Have you considered using a dedicated SQL Server for your vCenter Server as another possible workaround? In this case you would be able to backup your production SQL Server like any other VM.
I wouldn't consider this just to be able to back it up properly. Its a complete waste of licensing and resources.

These are the types of problems that are making us keep our legacy backup software and tape drive..

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Vitaliy S. wrote:With this approach you will keep the same ID for the VM in the backup job, but this will not retain the same ID for the VM which will be hosted on the new ESX(i) server.

Have you considered using a dedicated SQL Server for your vCenter Server as another possible workaround? In this case you would be able to backup your production SQL Server like any other VM.
Are there any plans to address this issue in anyway in 6.5?

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Gostev »


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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

woot woot - thanks!!

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Gostev - Can you confirm that this issue is addressed in 6.5?

Vitaliy S.
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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

I believe the answer is not yet, since v6.5 is not a major release.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Vitaliy S. wrote:I believe the answer is not yet, since v6.5 is not a major release.
The way 6.5 is being advertised it seems pretty "Major" to me! :wink: :mrgreen:

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by dellock6 »

My 2 cents: don't bother anymore about numbering or major/minor release of any vendor, we have all seen VMware introducing a big step in 5.1 compared to 5.0, even if numbering is .1, and Veeam now is introducing both Exchange and snapshots modules.
I ended up considering every release as such, and studying the release notes to understand how many changes are in it.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Gostev »

This feature is planned for version 7.0

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

Still planned for version 7??

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by Vitaliy S. »

Yes.

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Re: Version 6.1 - vCenter

Post by lobo519 »

soooooooooo.... Can I backup my virtual SQL server with my vCenter Database mounted on it without issue in v7????

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