Forever forward and synthesizing full to tape

[Steen]

Guys, do you see the said behaviour during the first cycle only? Or whenever time for creating virtual full backup comes, there are two full backups archived to tapes (virtual one and the oldest point from forward forever incremental chain)?

first Tape-job:
0 directories and 2 files backed up successfully

backup to disk:
merge old vbk into new

SecondTape-job says:
No new files to backup per job settings

???
Is it only possible to 1 Tape-job per day?

Regards Steen
(Case: 00923523)

[florian.meier]

Okey. So the problem is, that veeam backup to tape creates inital two vbks and i cant deactivate this, right?
as i understand, i cant do anything to bringt my data with only once vbk to tape, right?

thats a big issue for us, because we have many data that we want to write on tape, and now the hole job need doubled space on tape..

[martynuk]

I was just thinking the same thing. The logic for virtual full tape backups appears to be flawed. Why would you want (or indeed need) to copy the existing VBK as well? Since the VBK changes ever copy job/backup cycle, I'm guessing it will get copied every time. This new feature sounded very promising, but still hasn't delivered anything of any benefit.

[florian.meier]

yes martynuk, this isnt really a feature, youre right!

[Shestakov]

Florian, a possible workaround is to make an active full of the source job manually and start newly created backup-to-tape before the next run of the source job. Choose to copy to tape only the latest backup chain.
However, you will have additional full backup on the disk repository until the oldest is deleted by retention.
Thanks!

[veremin]

Since the VBK changes ever copy job/backup cycle, I'm guessing it will get copied every time.

Nope, your guess is wrong. Kindly, check my answer provided previously.

However, starting from that moment, only one virtual full backup will be created on tape.

[Steen]

Nope, your guess is wrong. Kindly, check my answer provided previously.

What happends when first tape-job expires/overwrites?
Will it create a full+Synthetic or just Synthetic?
regards Steen

[veremin]

Will it create a full+Synthetic or just Synthetic?

Just virtual full backup.

[Steen]

Just virtual full backup.

This behavior is for all tapes-job (i got 3)
So i should make first(full+synthetic) with short retention and second overwrites first tape and then extend retention?

this would take about 10 days per job to do and so in about 30 days i maybe have an running tape-backup?
Regards Steen

[florian.meier]

v.Eremin thank you, but we are not able to create additional an active full for everything, because of space.
what do you think, is this a reported bug and veeam will fix it as soon as possible?

[Steen]

Just virtual full backup.

Hi.
I tested this:
1. first tape-job = Full+Synthentic
2. Second tape-job= Synthetic
3. third tape-job= Synthetic
4. Marked all Tapes as free
5. Fourth tape-job= Full!!+Syntetic

(if you have made an extra Full it will be 2 Full+Synthetic)

This doesnt seeams not to work as espected
To makes this to work i must save Full indefinitly?
regard Steen

[martynuk]

There doesn't appear to be any way to configure a tape backup job to avoid this happening. Tape backup jobs will copy a VBK to tape if it hasn't already been copied. This is hard-coded functionality. A virtual full will be additional to this.

What happens when the tape which contains the VBK is expired and returned to the Free pool? In this case is it copied again on the next job run?

I understand now that this is "working as designed". This isn't the same as "working as desired". I suspect this is an enhancement request rather than a bug?

[veremin]

This doesnt seeams not to work as espected

Nope, it does seem to work as expected, because you've literally simulated the initial cycle. When you erased all mediums (even the one that contained the latest virtual full backup), you made backup console unaware of point before which it should look for backup files.

When virtual full backup is created, backup console automatically memorizes its creation date. Starting from this moment, backup server won't try to copy points creation time of which is older than that date.

What happens when the tape which contains the VBK is expired and returned to the Free pool? In this case is it copied again on the next job run?

With virtual full backup enabled the oldest restore point (.vbk that is being merged on regular basis) will be copied only once. Even when tape containing it returns to Free pool, the said point wouldn't be copied, as virtual backup would be utilized, instead.

Thanks.

[Steen]

Nope, it does seem to work as expected, because you've literally simulated the initial cycle. When you erased all mediums (even the one that contained the latest virtual full backup), you made backup console unaware of point before which it should look for backup files.

When virtual full backup is created, backup console automatically memorizes its creation date. Starting from this moment, backup server won't try to copy points creation time of which is older than that date.
With virtual full backup enabled the oldest restore point (.vbk that is being merged on regular basis) will be copied only once. Even when tape containing it returns to Free pool, the said point wouldn't be copied, as virtual backup would be utilized, instead.

Thanks.

I returned the tape to free pool and next time the tape-job ran it copied full+Synthetic again.'
This isnt good when you have 50 TB data to protect.

You think this is good logic?

(Full = all vbk-files)

1. first run of tape-job = Full+Synthentic
2. Second run of tape-job= Synthetic
3. third run of tape-job= Synthetic
4. Marked all Tapes as free
5. Fourth run of tape-job= Full!!+Syntetic

but this isnt correct
"... Even when tape containing it returns to Free pool, the said point wouldn't be copied, as virtual backup would be utilized, instead..."

[Shestakov]

You can always go for "traditional" incremental backup method which includes periodic full backups and set a proper retention.

[Steen]

You can always go for "traditional" incremental backup method which includes periodic full backups and set a proper retention.

What is that?
Please use correct name.
If you mean Reverse incremental then tape-job will fail because Backup-job will run next day and the tape-job isnt done.

So if you have much data to tape you cant use Reverse incremental

[veremin]

4. Marked all Tapes as free

That's the root cause of the described behaviour. You've cleared the tape catalogue, so that, tape jobs is neither aware of original full, nor of the virtual ones created later on.

[Shestakov]

I meant backup job Forward incremental backup method. Thanks.

[Steen]

That's the root cause of the described behaviour. You've cleared the tape catalogue, so that, tape jobs is neither aware of original full, nor of the virtual ones created later on.

ok.
I dont understand.
if the original full backup expires then it will be overwriten? then it wont exist any more?
Or does Veeam still have it on catalog ?
What happend if the same tape will be use to another Pool (after expiration)

[veremin]

If the explanation provided previously doesn't work for you, let me approach it from a different angle.

If in that case you had erased all tapes but one that contained the latest virtual full backup, backup server would have archived two full backups to tape. Instead, it would have proceeded with just one virtual full backup.

Thanks.

[Steen]

If the explanation provided previously doesn't work for you, let me approach it from a different angle.

If in that case you had erased all tapes but one that contained the latest virtual full backup, backup server would have archived two full backups to tape. Instead, it would have proceeded with just one virtual full backup.

Thanks.

I think i understand.
pls correct me if im wrong.
When a Synthetic backup (only that, not full) is created, there must be a previous backup (full or Synthetic) on tape. otherwise there will be a Full and then Synthetic on tape.
After Synthetic backup is done, old (previous) can be move to free?

[veremin]

Correct.

[Steen]

Correct.

good.
I make a test during this weekend with only one VM.

[Treeeman]

Hello,

at my previous veeam installation i had following issue with syntetic full to tape.
I have created serveral forward incremental forever jobs with 3 Restore Points (further Restore Points are created with daily Backup Copy) running at 21:00 PM on each day. The first run of my newly created Jobs was sunday. So a VBK File was created. That's fine. I also created a Backup to Tape Job to offload the files to tape.

Unfortunatelly the Tape Autoloader had a hardware issue so the tape job failed. On Friday the Autoloader was repaired and i startet the Tape Job. The Backup Job stored the VBK File from my forward incrementel forever Job on Tape and additionally the syntetic full from the restore point of Thursday evening.

Luckily it was no problem to store two vbk files on tape.
But what should i do in this case if i don't have space on tape to store two vkb files?

Thanks.

Kind Regards
Marco

[Steen]

Hello,

at my previous veeam installation i had following issue with syntetic full to tape.
I have created serveral forward incremental forever jobs with 3 Restore Points (further Restore Points are created with daily Backup Copy) running at 21:00 PM on each day. The first run of my newly created Jobs was sunday. So a VBK File was created. That's fine. I also created a Backup to Tape Job to offload the files to tape.

Unfortunatelly the Tape Autoloader had a hardware issue so the tape job failed. On Friday the Autoloader was repaired and i startet the Tape Job. The Backup Job stored the VBK File from my forward incrementel forever Job on Tape and additionally the syntetic full from the restore point of Thursday evening.

Luckily it was no problem to store two vbk files on tape.
But what should i do in this case if i don't have space on tape to store two vkb files?

Thanks.

Kind Regards
Marco

I would guess that You have to enter an additional tape and it will continue

[Treeeman]

Off course would it possible to simply add more tapes. In an environment with a tape autoloader and enough tapes not that big issue.
But this is not what i am looking for.

Let us guess i dont have a autoloader. Just a standalone drive and just the space on one tape to store one vbk file for each VM.
The most of my customers dont have space on tape to store multible VBK Files for each VM.

In my case for each Server two VBK files will be stored on tape.
After the half of my VMs get processed my tape will get full (because 2 VBK for each VM) and i have had to put a second tape to my standalone drive.
In case i do so, i still have the issue the Backup for my VMs is spanned over two tapes. This is not my goal.

Of course this issue may only happen at the first run (i think and i hope)
But for my customers with limited tape capacity it is hardly to understand and accept why this is happening.

[veremin]

You're saying that you don't have tapes to host even two .vbk files? So, your tapes will be overwritten, each time tape job takes place?

In this case, you can put into use files to tape job in combination with some scripting (required to find the latest .vbk) or switch source jobs to reversed incremental mode.

Thanks.

[Treeeman]

Lets assume i have a customer with a standalone Autoloader. My Customer has 10 Tapes. 5 Tapes for Weekly with even weeknumber and 5 Tapes for odd weeknumbers.
I have serveral forward incremental forever Jobs and a Backup to Tape Job like described above. Tape Job is scheduled on weekdays. Within the Tape Job i selected syntetic full for Monday till Friday.

On one single tape i have space to store one .vbk file for each VM i backup.
Goal is to store the last restore point for each weekday as a syntetic full on one tape.
So my Customer is able to take Backups of each VM from a single day outside the office.

Problem:
If the scheduled Tape Job is running for the first time and there are meanwhile more restore points (1x .vbk at the first run and multible .vib) there will be stored two .vbk files for each VM. The Tape will be full before each VM is processed. So for this case i have to use two tapes for the first run.

Like i read within this topic it is "by design" to store always the first .vbk File of a Forward Incremental Forever Job on tape.
Maybe there is the possiblity to add a Option within the Tape Job to ignore the first .vbk file and only save the syntetic full for the last restore point of each vm which is generated from the .vbk file and the needed .vib files.

I hope you understand what i mean.
Thanks.

[veremin]

Are also concerned with disk space? If not, you can execute manual full backup, and re-create the tape job making it copy only the latest portion of existing chain. Thanks.

[Treeeman]

Ok. I will use this workaround for the future. Thanks!