Phasing Out our Socket-based Licensing

[Gostev]

Being with R&D we have absolutely no idea about SKUs and all this sales-specific stuff... I forwarded your question to our Renewals department, hopefully their rep will be able to reach out with clarifications sooner than your reseller. Thanks!

[Deansbkk]

Thank you Gostev

[m.novelli]

VUL have only Production Support (unfortunately)

[ChrisGundry]

Seems Veeam have extended the end of sale for socket licenses to Jan 23?

[m.novelli]

I'm not aware of this, at least in Italy?

[ChrisGundry]

I queried something about buying new licenses now sockets have ended and I was told that they are still available until Jan 1st 23. I am in the UK.

I googled and found this:
https://community.veeam.com/discussion- ... nging-2673

[Regnor]

There was a mailing about the extension of socket sales to existing customers in May. I also didn't get that first and found out about this because of Michaels Post in the community

[ChrisGundry]

I just spoke with our sales person again as it has been some time and I wanted to confirm something. They have stated that if we are a socket customer and we need to purchase more licenses after sockets go EOS we will have to buy VUL, which we understand. But they have now stated that to use the extra VUL we will have to setup a separate Veeam deployment, which will only use the VUL licenses. Is that really correct? That is not what our previous rep said, they stated we could merge the sockets and VUL licensing into a single console and continue as before...?

[Mildur]

Hi Chris

As long it is not a VUL Backup Essential, license merging should be possible. You can read more about the rules of merging licenses in our license policy:
https://www.veeam.com/licensing-policy.html

In case you merge the socket license with the VUL, the extra VUL's cannot be used to backup virtual machines with VM Backup Jobs.
In presents of a socket license, all workloads from hypervisors needs to be protected by socket licensing.
Also using different licenses (1 VBR with Sockets, 1 VBR with VUL) to protect virtual machines from the same source infrastructure is not allowed per our license policy.

The VULs are normally bought and merged to protect physical machines or NAS workload beside the already backed up virtual machines.

Thanks
Fabian

[jorgedlcruz]

Hello Chris,
That will depend if what you are going to protect with the new VUL you are adding to the VBR. If we are talking VMs from Hyper-V, or VMware, that is correct, as VBR will give priority to the Sockets licenses; if with those VULs you are going to protect Servers using Veeam Agents for Linux/Windows/Mac/Oracle RMAN, etc. Then it will not be a problem. There is some info here, where it says "Can I have both VUL (per-workload) and legacy per-socket licenses? ", if not totally clear let us know so we can adjust it.

Additionally, you can create a separate VBR for the VUL, and another for the sockets, and manage them using Enterprise Manager.

What I have seen in most of the Customers I spoke to in the UK, after thinking of the pros and cons, they have migrated the Sockets to VUL (there are some logs you can provide so the density of VMs remains), and I think it was something similar if you compare VULs renewals every 3/5 years, and sockets support renewal every 3/5 years, but of course, discounts are always something to consider and ask to your sales rep.

[ChrisGundry]

Hi Chris

As long it is not a VUL Backup Essential, license merging should be possible. You can read more about the rules of merging licenses in our license policy:
https://www.veeam.com/licensing-policy.html

In case you merge the socket license with the VUL, the extra VUL's cannot be used to backup virtual machines with VM Backup Jobs.
In presents of a socket license, all workloads from hypervisors needs to be protected by socket licensing.
Also using different licenses (1 VBR with Sockets, 1 VBR with VUL) to protect virtual machines from the same source infrastructure is not allowed per our license policy.

The VULs are normally bought and merged to protect physical machines or NAS workload beside the already backed up virtual machines.

Thanks
Fabian

Perhaps it was the case in the past that VUL were purchased to protect physical workloads, because that was the only way to license them. However, now Veeam are basically forcing customers to buy VUL to protect VMs because they are stopping the sale of socket licenses. But at the same time they are giving poor advice via their sales team. I queried this in the past because the documentation at the time was not clear and the sales rep said we could merge and continue as we do currently. As is now clear, that is not the case and we would be required to setup a completely separate VBR instance to use VUL to protect VMs. Or, pay over the odds to migrate all licenses to VUL. Very poor show Veeam...

[ChrisGundry]

Hello Chris,
That will depend if what you are going to protect with the new VUL you are adding to the VBR. If we are talking VMs from Hyper-V, or VMware, that is correct, as VBR will give priority to the Sockets licenses; if with those VULs you are going to protect Servers using Veeam Agents for Linux/Windows/Mac/Oracle RMAN, etc. Then it will not be a problem. There is some info here, where it says "Can I have both VUL (per-workload) and legacy per-socket licenses? ", if not totally clear let us know so we can adjust it.

Additionally, you can create a separate VBR for the VUL, and another for the sockets, and manage them using Enterprise Manager.

What I have seen in most of the Customers I spoke to in the UK, after thinking of the pros and cons, they have migrated the Sockets to VUL (there are some logs you can provide so the density of VMs remains), and I think it was something similar if you compare VULs renewals every 3/5 years, and sockets support renewal every 3/5 years, but of course, discounts are always something to consider and ask to your sales rep.

See my other reply, but that KB has been updated over the last year and is now much clearer than it used to be. Your sales team are now giving different responses than they were earlier this year.

If you setup another VBR instance and manage them using EM can you:
1. Share the same VBR servers, proxies, repos etc between both intances, or do you have to have completely separate infrastructure?
2. Can a job somehow backup VMs within both instances via EM?
3. Is there any documentation on such a setup with this licensing model?

I suspect the answer to 1/2 are both no. In which case you are indeed forcing (by practicalities) customers to either migrate fully to VUL, or find another vendor. No one is going to setup a whole separate VBR infrastructure and potentially re-juggle all their clusters and jobs etc just so they can buy VUL licenses and continue to use Veeam. They are either going to have to suck up the cost to migrate to VUL or ditch Veeam completely.

[jorgedlcruz]

Helo Chris,
The answer to 1 and 2 is technically no. You can reuse the repo space in case it is presented by LUNs, etc. So you can present space to repo001 on vbr001, and another LUN to repo002 on vbr002, for example. EM does not have jobs itself, it just gives you visibility across your multiple VBRs.

Regarding documentation, nothing this specific, just the very useful Helpcenter with Enterprise Manager, but I do not think I have seen documented an environment with multiple VBR running sockets or VUL, seems like a good blog post, or KB to have at hand.

To your last sentence, I agree with you, but the limitations are what they are, I would add a third option to your comment, and that is discuss with your Sales Representative as this person can help your business move forward with Veeam, at the best possible cost in case you decide to go all VUL, which btw you do not need to worry about until Jan 2023 it seems per last communications.

I am part of Product Management, so I can not change how this works, or how the license checks if a VM is protected by a socket or a VUL. But coming from Veeam presales, I saw many times this example, and so far the Customers we discussed with, managed to either buy more sockets to be covered for the future, or convert socket to VUL. On some specific use-case, 1000+ VMs on Sockets, and a new DC with another 800VMs, they were happy with the EM with two VBR, because that makes the most sense for them.

Please engage your Sales, Systems Engineer, and Partner. I hope between the all you can remain with Veeam with the best solution tailored for you.

[scoffbelly]

Can I just check if this is correct?

"I wanted to bring a new licensing update to your attention in relation to socket based licenses/contracts before your next renewal. It has been announced that come Jan 1st, 2023, Veeam will no longer be selling socket based licensing to existing customers or new customers. We will allow you to continue renewing your sockets, however, you will not have the ability to add to them or upgrade your edition."

[m.novelli]

Yes, I confirm it's correct

[abecyprys]

We have 8 socket maintenance. We are in AU.
This year's maintenance is 32.29% higher than last year. ($6794.48)
To convert to 60 x VM maintenance this year would cost us: $12,719.83
Yes, double. Sounds reasonable????
I think we will go without maintenance... This will be our first step in looking for another product.
Goodbye, and thanks for the fish...

[m.novelli]

As a reseller I work with the biggest IT Vendor - Microsoft / Dell / Veeam / VMware / AWS , they all got too greedy. They are pushing End Customers to exasperation. I think we need a big reset in IT industry. I'm happy that I'm making big revenue but at the same time I'm ashamed by insane prices I have to charge to customers. I think this situation can't last longer that 2 - 3 more years.

Marco

[zadrian]

Sadly.....we are also not a fan of VUL....
Worse of all this forum seems to also only reply for issues if there are cases made with Veeam support, maybe they want to keep generic issues quiet ??

Then we are now reviewing Vembu which actually seems like a Veeam alternative with only 25% of the costs, especially after Veeam went into US and began to increase prices annually by 10% to 15% for the past few years.

[m.novelli]

Well, the rule is always the same: Customers use 20% of the features but Company charge 100% of the price. Every year Veeam / Microsoft / Dell / VMware / AWS add new features , but regarding to Veeam I still use the same features of 5 years ago, or more. Free Edition is OK for most of my customer, except the limit of 10 VM. The only new feature I've used in last years is backup export to Microsoft Azure cloud, that forced my customers to upgrade to Enterprise Version.
I'm sure that competitors now offer backup / restore functionality at the same level of Veeam 5 years ago at a fraction of the price, so it's natural for exasperated customers to start look around for alternatives. Unfortunately US Management can't see this coming, they are too much focused on big Enterprise Customers. It's the same for Microsoft, since 1 year I'm arguing with management about licensing and prices but they don't see SMB market, just Enterprise

Marco

[Gostev]

I'm sure that competitors now offer backup / restore functionality at the same level of Veeam 5 years ago at a fraction of the price, so it's natural for exasperated customers to start look around for alternatives. Unfortunately US Management can't see this coming, they are too much focused on big Enterprise Customers. It's the same for Microsoft, since 1 year I'm arguing with management about licensing and prices but they don't see SMB market, just Enterprise

I'm pretty sure the "US Management" does see that and it just so happens that you wrote the absolute perfect explanation of the whole issue that drives their decisions.

I mean, it does not really take a genius to realize that the best any SMB offering can hope for after being on the market for 15 years (sic!) is engaging into a race to the bottom called "who can sell minimum functionality cheaper" with multiple ankle-biters who will continue to pop up like mushrooms. So either the "US Management" engages into this completely unprofitable challenge, or they bet the company's future on Enterprise and Service Providers, were many of our advanced features actually matter, while the technology barrier is so much higher for those ankle-biters to be able to catch up.

[Gostev]

Worse of all this forum seems to also only reply for issues if there are cases made with Veeam support, maybe they want to keep generic issues quiet??

Or may be because these are R&D Forums and "generic issues" should not be brought here for discussion in the first place?
I mean, it's not like we don't provide an open discussion board for all other things Veeam > Community Hub

[mkaec]

So ... "US Management" ... bet the company's future on Enterprise and Service Providers, were many of our advanced features actually matter...

I thought that's what editions were for - to provide functionality to SMBs at a price that is reasonable to them, and then sell advanced functionality to enterprise customers at a higher price. If you unreasonably raise the price SMBs pay, you're just encouraging them to go to the "ankle biters".

At the end of the day, people just want to be treated fairly and with respect.

[Gostev]

We thought so too regarding editions, which is why we introduced Veeam Backup Starter some years ago, remember? SMB edition functionality at a price that was borderline profitable to us (net to Veeam barely covered our costs of providing technical support to the given customer, let alone any profit). That's right: Starter basically checked all your marks and yet it failed to get any meaningful traction in terms of revenue, and because of that after a couple of years it was eventually discontinued. It was really quite a spectacular failure but also a great learning experience. As you can see, it's not as simple as it may seem at a first sight.

[zadrian]

Or may be because these are R&D Forums and "generic issues" should not be brought here for discussion in the first place?
I mean, it's not like we don't provide an open discussion board for all other things Veeam > Community Hub

But then were should the "generic issues" for Veeam products be brought up ?? In the end, all the Veeam support does is to give links to veeam KB which is possible to give out in the forums ??

Coz if a simple link to a KB can be posted instead of asking for case numbers, then in the future, people with similar issues can use that post as a reference ?

[Gostev]

Generic technical issues should be brought to the Veeam Support. Because our support organization is staffed to handle the volume of technical issues received every day while the team behind this forum is not, simple as that. By the way, this is all explained in the greatest of details in the forum rules displayed when you make any posting including the specific purpose of this forum. So please read them carefully.

[vmtech123]

But then were should the "generic issues" for Veeam products be brought up ?? In the end, all the Veeam support does is to give links to veeam KB which is possible to give out in the forums ??

Coz if a simple link to a KB can be posted instead of asking for case numbers, then in the future, people with similar issues can use that post as a reference ?

If it's a KB, you could search it yourself and save time even. Also, if it's a KB, it should be a pretty easy fix too.

I think the reason is they don't want people who are using community edition in their home labs trying to get free support from the staff in here. Also, if you are not paying for the support, then you SHOULD be googling the fix yourself. I pay for support and don't want those guys tied up helping people or "getting the link to KB's" for people not paying. I believe Veeam even help community edition users but end up at the end of the queue, but I could be wrong there.

If you have support, why is it so hard to open a ticket? Takes a few seconds and you can get your questions answered.

I personally have had great experiences with Veeam support.

[hoFFy]

Well, the rule is always the same: Customers use 20% of the features but Company charge 100% of the price. Every year Veeam / Microsoft / Dell / VMware / AWS add new features , but regarding to Veeam I still use the same features of 5 years ago, or more. Free Edition is OK for most of my customer, except the limit of 10 VM. The only new feature I've used in last years is backup export to Microsoft Azure cloud, that forced my customers to upgrade to Enterprise Version.
I'm sure that competitors now offer backup / restore functionality at the same level of Veeam 5 years ago at a fraction of the price, so it's natural for exasperated customers to start look around for alternatives. Unfortunately US Management can't see this coming, they are too much focused on big Enterprise Customers. It's the same for Microsoft, since 1 year I'm arguing with management about licensing and prices but they don't see SMB market, just Enterprise

Marco

I totally agree with you! We use the same features as of years ago. But as a service provider we got the same feedback from nearly all of our SMB customers: "$$$$ only for backup? No way!". Yes, Veeam is the leader in the market and has the best features, nearly always runs out of the box and so on. Personally, I love VBR, but we are evolving, too. We are now shifting all customers to a competitor, where we also have have one webinterface for all of our customers and are able to do offsite backups to AWS, Azure or Wasabi (btw the cheapest and runs great). Our customers pay per VM and so we do, too. But it's cheaper than Veeam and we have a great support, too. The software itself has a chat with the support included, so we have nearly just in time feedback and also sales represantatives direct in Germany, too, who we know personally from 1:1 and also have other products like some E-Mail security products from their portfolio.
I'm very sad that it went this way, but over the last years Veeam got more and more expensive and nobody has ever been able to show us a licensing model where we can simply say "you have 5 VMs, this is your price" and have the same simple billing model on the other side. There has alway been struggle with "reporting of usage", set up your own service provider console and so on... so finally we gave up and went on.
In the end we have a cheaper product, the feature set our SMB customers need, a a single pane of glass view for our technicians, easy licensing model, caring sales represantitives which is very important for us as a managed service provider etc.

[dloseke]

I think the reason is they don't want people who are using community edition in their home labs trying to get free support from the staff in here. Also, if you are not paying for the support, then you SHOULD be googling the fix yourself. I pay for support and don't want those guys tied up helping people or "getting the link to KB's" for people not paying. I believe Veeam even help community edition users but end up at the end of the queue, but I could be wrong there.

Yes, Community Edition is supported on a best effort basis and as the queue's allow after the paid support cases. Production workloads should be running productions licenses for access to support and upgrades, etc. But on the same token, a free license may be what it takes to move users over to Veeam and then they see the value and purchase support.

[dloseke]

I totally agree with you! We use the same features as of years ago. But as a service provider we got the same feedback from nearly all of our SMB customers: "$$$$ only for backup? No way!".

It sounds like you're not selling your customers on the total value of the software. It's not "only for backup". Are you using the other features such as SureBackup/SureReplica verification? Snapshot-based Replicas? CDP Replica's? Instant restore capabilities? Immutability? Of course there are more, but if you're not using all or most of the features, you're obviously just using a portion of what the software is capable of, but that's also going to realize less value.

I'm very sad that it went this way, but over the last years Veeam got more and more expensive and nobody has ever been able to show us a licensing model where we can simply say "you have 5 VMs, this is your price" and have the same simple billing model on the other side.

I'm confused, isn't this exactly what VUL's and the VCSP program is for? They both have standard pricing models that are billed per workload, with the VCSP rental model getting you literally down to the VM.

There has alway been struggle with "reporting of usage", set up your own service provider console and so on... so finally we gave up and went on.
In the end we have a cheaper product, the feature set our SMB customers need, a a single pane of glass view for our technicians, easy licensing model, caring sales represantitives which is very important for us as a managed service provider etc.

I'm a little confused here as well. The service provider console does a great job of reporting usage. And it's a single pane of glass to the customers.

Now, I'm not going to disagree that there are plenty of backup services out there that have pretty panes of glass for management and can manage all customers in one spot. If you found something that works better for you, more power to you. But I think a lot of the things you're looking for are absolutely in the Veeam products, but it's not always a turn-key solution, and if that's what you need, then perhaps Veeam isn't the best solution for you.

[jtupeck]

Also, if you are not paying for the support, then you SHOULD be googling the fix yourself. I pay for support and don't want those guys tied up helping people or "getting the link to KB's" for people not paying.

I would argue that we should all be googling for answers whether we pay for support or not. I learned so much over the decade of being a Veeam user (and as a VAR the last 3 years) and it was always a sense of satisfaction when I fixed something before Support was able to figure it out and/or when the info they sent pointed me in a direction that led me to fixing the issue. We grew on both sides, IMO. Now I have my VMCE and VMCA and it's super handy to help my customers. If we can't figure it out on our own, then I am able to escalate to Tier 2 support with my VMCE ID. Veeam support has gone down a little bit in the last few years but its something they are aware of the struggles around and I think the global staffing issues we've seen over the last few years have a lot to do with it.