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EdSeibert3
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[MERGED] JBOD repositories

Post by EdSeibert3 »

What is everyone out there using as repositories? We have standard 30 day retention and looking to get into JBOD repos. What is the best stuff available today? I found some older posts but nothing from the last few years. Primarily a Dell shop but open to others.

Dmont
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Re: JBOD repositories

Post by Dmont »

We use a mix of storage:
multiple HPE StoreOnce,
Multiple QNAP nas,
IBM V7000,
AWS.

Retention depends on the service, it ranges from 2days all the way through to 30 days.

I'm not sure what stuff (hardware) is recommended now, so I'm interested what other peoples views are.

nitramd
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Re: JBOD repositories

Post by nitramd » 1 person likes this post

Is there a reason you want to use JBOD? This method does not provide any type of redundancy.

Given that you want a repo, I think you'd better off with a RAID array and a discrete RAID card, aka HBA.

You can use:
RAID-10 for a good balance of read/write speeds but you sacrifice overall capacity, i.e. you'll have only 50% of total capacity.

RAID-6 for quite good read performance but not great write performance - this type of RAID yields higher overall capacity than RAID-10.

foggy
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by foggy »

Hi Ed, tons of recommendations are given in the thread above, please review.

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[MERGED] Repo recommendations??

Post by therealdj »

Hi All,
Im currently managing an environment where our store once device is coming to the end of its life.
We backup around 30TB of data including a couple of big physical servers (legacy exchange and file services), I haven't had a look at the market for a while and id be interested to know what people are using these days and recommend?

Im open to either appliances or software that can be installed on something, im looking for good dedupe and as fast as possible ingestion and obviously as cheap as possible.

Thanks

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Re: Repo recommendations??

Post by ejenner »

We use a lot of HP DS3600 storage arrays connected to Windows 2016 servers. We've formatted using ReFS (latest 2016 version) and we get a lot of good space savings with the ReFS.

I've configured one of my systems with three DS3600s daisy-chained and presented as a single volume to Windows with about 150tb of space. Not had any trouble with that and it's nice to have the continuous volume so you don't have to mess about moving jobs between volumes running low on space.

nitramd
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by nitramd »

Hello Dave.

I've found that one of the keys to fast ingest is a high number of physical CPU cores on the data repository - think parallel ingest. In this case more is better.

For a disk array, see my post above for a couple of RAID types.

Other factors involved for ingesting quickly are network speed and storage type, i.e. flash has higher bandwidth than mechanical drives.

To mention what you already know, your budget determines all.

Hope this helps and good luck.

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[MERGED] Choose new backup repository

Post by MS84 »

Hi,
I’m looking for new backup repository for my Veeam backup. I’m currently looking at a Synology RS2418 with 10x10TB disks. At the moment I need 50TB diskspace and room for expansion. I’m backing up 3 ESXi hosts with 16 VMs.
Is this a bad choice? It will be used as my backup copy (GFS) repository.
Anything I should pay attention to? Is it the right CPU, is 4GB of RAM enough, SSD Cache?
And when it comes to configuration of the NAS, I was thinking of using RAID6, but is there a better option? SHR?
What block size and filesystem when formatting the drive?
Should I use iSCSI, CIFS or NFS?
I know it’s a lot of questions and there are a lot of threads about some of these questions but no clear answers. I really hope you guys can help me.
Best Regards,

Egor Yakovlev
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Re: Choose new backup repository

Post by Egor Yakovlev »

Hi!
You are right, too many variables here to recommend "the best" way to implement it.
I would start with RAID6, 128K stripe size, iSCSI to Windows Server 2016 with all ReFS-related patches installed, 64K block size on Windows volume.
From here, you can launch first backups and observe bottlenecks to improve performance further.
/Cheers!

foggy
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by foggy »

This thread contains other hints as well, worth reviewing - at least the very first post. You can also search the forums for other blocksize-related discussions. Thanks!

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by nezzer »

I've been using Lenovo SR650 with tripple 12Gbit HBAs and 24 SATA SSD's since that series was born.
Has been working really well I have however disabled Windows SS dedupe since it was having lots of issues.

When using instant restore of hard working database servers there is only one way to go and that is -> SSDS. It dosen't need to be enterprise grade SSDS but the latency gains makes astronomical difference in both backup and restore scenarios.
The servers are running NDBSSL and acting as proxies aswell, hard working babies but relativly cheap setup which scales well. 8)
Windows SS STD mirroring and REFS 64k

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by nabradley »

This post caught my eye as we're looking at a synology Rs1619xs box and wondered what you went with and configurations. It comes wth 8gb ram and has an option for SSD cache, is this cache something worth setting up to increase backup speeds?

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by Gostev »

We recommend using general-purpose servers for backup repositories. This will give much bigger boost to the long-term performance than SSD cache, as in this case we can run our data mover directly on the box.

In general, consumer-grade NAS is the worst choice for backup repositories due to the lack of enterprise-grade RAID controllers, which causes data loss in a number of scenarios.

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by pirx » 1 person likes this post

We're currently struggling with our NetApp CIFS approach. We have 500TB backup job data spread over two side A and B, which is then again copied crosswise (~1,2PB) and parts of it send to S3. We use 4 physical Proxies, each with 20 Cores. The backup NetApp is all flash, the copy repository nearline sas. The backup performance is good (forever forward + syn fulls), but all synthetic fulls, merges etc. take very long time (sometimes more than 5 days for jobs wiht 30-40TB). In theory the all flash filers should be able to do more throughput, but we don't get more then 150MB/s in diskspd benchmark for merge operations. But we don't see high latency on the volumes. Looking at the pex data in the job logs, everything indicates that it's a storage problem. But we just can't nail it down.

As this is no thread to help me solve this problem. What storage do others use for this kind of use case and size? I personally don't like Windows REFS, everything I read about XFS sounds better to me.

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by Gostev »

ReFS is by far the top in terms of usage, nothing comes even close. Based on our support big data, we estimate ~10EB of total capacity in all ReFS backup repositories deployed out there. XFS on the other hand does not have much adoption yet, as this integration is fairly new + it requires minimal Linux expertise to deploy, which is not something everyone has.

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by pirx »

Yes, I heard and read a lot about ReFS. I still would like to hear what others are using as Enterprise grade storage and their experience. Especially in a relatively large environment where 400TB backup, 2 PB copy volume is needed. As we are not able to perform active fulls, we have a lot of synthetic operations which is just too much for our current infrastructure/storage. This is what currently hurts. Also on top there are the offload sessions to S3, which add more read operations on performance tier.

Gostev
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by Gostev »

pirx wrote: Dec 04, 2020 9:12 amEspecially in a relatively large environment where 400TB backup, 2 PB copy volume is needed.
This is simply not the case with ReFS or XFS, as synthetic full backups don't take any physical disk space in such repositories.

pirx
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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by pirx »

pirx wrote: Nov 23, 2020 8:10 pm We're currently struggling with our NetApp CIFS approach. We have 500TB backup job data spread over two side A and B, which is then again copied crosswise (~1,2PB) and parts of it send to S3. We use 4 physical Proxies, each with 20 Cores. The backup NetApp is all flash, the copy repository nearline sas. The backup performance is good (forever forward + syn fulls), but all synthetic fulls, merges etc. take very long time (sometimes more than 5 days for jobs wiht 30-40TB). In theory the all flash filers should be able to do more throughput, but we don't get more then 150MB/s in diskspd benchmark for merge operations. But we don't see high latency on the volumes. Looking at the pex data in the job logs, everything indicates that it's a storage problem. But we just can't nail it down.

As this is no thread to help me solve this problem. What storage do others use for this kind of use case and size? I personally don't like Windows REFS, everything I read about XFS sounds better to me.
I'd like to push this a bit. As we are currently in an internal discussion where to go next.

First of all there is the discussion about OS and FS
So Windows and ReFS is used more often, linux support is still quite new. But there are some nice linux features coming in v11 and XFS is a rock solid fs in my opinion.

Are there any users around that already use XFS with reflink/fastclone with backup data of ~1PT, that can share their experience, especially with environments and backup chains that are not completely new?

Second there is the discussion about hardware
I'd opt for compute + storage in a commodity server with as many disks as possible, so that compute is as near as possible to the disks. Like a building block that can easily be scaled. Others vote for server + classic FC SAN, again because of scaling and "nobody" else uses servers with this amount of storage. And indeed, other companies I know which are using Veeam +ReFS use for SAN too. So it feels a bit like the storage server approach is more for smaller companies. I know that there is not one way to go, but I'd also like to here what others use as base for their ReFS/XFS repos.

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by Gostev »

Personally, I'm with you here.

I love commodity servers approach as the cheapest, and because it works at scale! Even a long time ago, we already had Veeam Cloud Connect providers hosting PBs of data in multiple Cisco C3260 (this model was later renamed to S3260). So I've been very confident recommended this approach to Enterprise customers ever since, and we've also been investing heavily in this deployment scenario from the engine perspective. v11 is particularly game changing after all of our joint work with HPE using their Apollo 4510, which allowed us to more than double throughput comparing to v10. Eventually, we were able to reach 11.4 GB/s backup speed on a single all-in-one backup appliance! And yes, these are bytes not bits, not a typo. Which reminds me, I need to blog about it this weekend with more details.

I will also concur there's nothing wrong with server + SAN approach either. This will work just fine too. One other biggest Cloud Connect provider I have in mind uses Nimble as their backup target (they bought a lot and got an awesome deal from HPE). They decided to invest in this because they liked the idea of storage snapshots as an extra layer of ransomware protection, since Veeam did not have built-in immutability technologies at the time.

So you cannot really go wrong with this either - it just means higher costs and a bit larger data center footprint in any case. On the other hand, this may be something your existing IT staff are more comfortable managing, which will in the end translate into lower costs (as human hours are always the most expensive IT asset).

One other possible drawback of SAN approach is less flexibility to repurpose: some modern technology seem to prefer direct access to disks (like Storage Space Direct) and explicitly don't support anything that abstracts storage from them. But I guess it goes both ways: being shared storage, you can repurpose a regular SAN in ways you cannot easily achieve with regular servers.

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by nmdange » 1 person likes this post

We've been using Veeam (and DPM before that) on low cost, high density storage servers from Supermicro for over 10 years now. Never had any issues with performance or reliability. ReFS too now for a few of years. We're in the 300TB range of backup disk usage (though with ReFS that's not that much bigger than the source systems' total disk usage). If I was designing backup storage for a much larger environment, I would just take the same Supermicro storage server design and throw more servers/JBODs at it.

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Re: Recommendations for backup storage, backup target

Post by pirx »

That sound promising. One point pro FC SAN is that we use it anyway with IBM storage snapshot integration, which means that the repository/proxy/gateway server need connection to FC SAN anyway. Regarding flexibility I'm not so sure if a (or multiple) large storage server(s) can be reused better for other purposes compared to a FC SAN device.

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